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Democrat or Republican? Who do you think will win?
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Tullaryx

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

With all the talk of the mid-term elections here and who will take over the House and the Senate and whether the Democrats are more or less better than the Republican I'm wondering one thing. Which U.S. members here in Suikox who are of voting age will actually go out on Tuesday and vote?
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Thor McOdin

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Amyral"]

Thor McOdin wrote:
*John Kerry botched the joke (and it sucked to begin with), but, honestly, how many times have we let Bush off the hook for not speaking correctly?


"Uhh, never? Or do you just not pay attention to the cricitism he gets every time he says something that doesn't make sense? Frankly, I think the democrats are coming off worse. The Republican's stance is essentially based on misunderstanding the "joke." The Democrat's backlash to the backlash is that they refuse to believe that the joke could be taken another way, which is flat out stupid."

Amyral, I agreed with you on my first two points, but this third point doesn't sit well with me. I pay attention to all news sources. I watch CNN, PBS, FOX, and MSNBC. In fact, I watch Fox so that everyone else doesn't have to. However, the conservative source of news has a lot of power in this world and how can we deny that? Everyone in the world that watches Star understands that Rupert Murdoch runs that subsidiary. In fact, in 2002, they ran a piece called "The Axis of Evil: Not If, But When". In a democracy such as this, that is hardly what I would consider responsible newscasting.

You pointed out Keith Olbermann, whom I love to watch. I am a liberal, but I love his show because of this. Bill O'Reilly (on the opposite end of the spectrum) has said many things that are just flat out wrong and/or stupid. For example, Bill wants to ban horror films. Also, how many times has Bush spoken incorrectly? Seriously, he has several quotes under his belt that prove this. My personal favorite is, "Corn can only take us so far. After all; we have to eat some," when referring to ethanol. It's humorous, but at the same time, you wonder how much of the people producing our energy right now are under his will. How can Brazil be completely independent on a home-grown, sugar-based energy source when, the U.S., the third most populated country in the world as well as a superpower, is reliant on foreign oil? I don't get it. I know Keith is a liberal, but he never says that conservatives are evil, while Sean Hannity and others clearly say that about the other party. Furthermore, have you ever watched Glenn Beck on Headline News? That dude is straight out of his mind! Within the past four months, he has predicted the end of the world about five times (to all you Muslim Americans out there, watch this guy for five seconds and see how long it takes for him to offend you).

Republicans and Democrats will continue to play this game for quite some time, until it is realized that a certain degree of moderation is needed to run the U.S. I am a liberal, but also a moderate. Things need to be done in this country in order to ensure the continuity of our culture. It isn't going to come with a conservaite executive brance as well as a conservative legislative branch.

Once again, sorry I am preachy. Tull, I voted for the Democrats earlier this week because I feel they are better for this country as of right now.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You say you disagree, but I don't see exactly where. All I see is you going off on a tangent that doesn't directly matter, that the conservative media has a lot of power. I never address that, so don't really see why, at all, you bring it up. Nor do I think your statement on axis of evil shows any direct relevance (nor do I think it's an accurate statement.) I never said he has never spoken incorrectly. In fact, I have a calendar that is 365 days of stupid Bush quotes. Your claim was that they weren't attacking on this, I see them attacking this everyday in all forms of pop-culture, which count in my eyes.

You go off on the Democratic vs. Republican media and the biases within it. Frankly, if you are looking through the eyes of one side, you aren't going to see the biases on that side, and you said yourself that you are liberal, which makes me take your analysis with a cup of salt. Do republican's spin? Sure, they spin a hell of a lot. But so do Democrats. You claim Bill O'Reilly says stupid things, and I agree, but I hear plenty of stupid things every time Keith Olbermann opens his mouth, the best example being his "analysis" of the Kerry Joke. He likes to play monday morning quarterback and spin artist, doing the exact same thing of what you see the average Fox-News anchor do, only on the opposite side of the spectrum. Sorry, I'm not buying that swampland.

You don't see Democrats calling the Republican party evil? I disagree entirely. I've heard many come flat out and say, and I quote, "Democrats don't lie, republicans do." I see it every time the mindless horde praises the next Michael Moore travesty that he calls a documentary, filled to the brim with misleading statements, lies of omission and an excellent example of propaganda. I see it with every amount of spin from every so-called "informed" democratic voter, who really has no idea whatsoever aside from the basic party line what his party actually supports. Does Fox News practice responsible journalism? Not really, but neither does Keith Olbermann or Michael Moore, despite the fact that they are passed off as such. Neither do the democratic talking heads, who specialize just as much in opinion as in fact.

And if you want to compare Brazil to the US in terms of sugar production, look at the protective tariff's we levy to protect our home-grown sugar producers. Without them, we could import cheaper sugar from Brazil, rather than what we get here. Of course, the US's significantly larger population also plays a significant role in that.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tullaryx wrote:
With all the talk of the mid-term elections here and who will take over the House and the Senate and whether the Democrats are more or less better than the Republican I'm wondering one thing. Which U.S. members here in Suikox who are of voting age will actually go out on Tuesday and vote?

I will, I registered in the summer.

Quote:
You don't see Democrats calling the Republican party evil?

I certainly have been. Banning a harmless way to save countless lives? Doing things just because it says so in the Bible, with absoloutely no non-religous moral reason whatsoever? Legalizing torture? Certainly seems evil to me.


Quote:
I see it every time the mindless horde praises the next Michael Moore travesty that he calls a documentary, filled to the brim with misleading statements, lies of omission and an excellent example of propaganda.


I don't know of many serious democrats that care for Michael Moore. Those are the "trash" of the group that praise him, the kind that only stick around or care for politics at all because the democratic side is slightly more likely to legalize their favorite pasttime. They usually vote for the Green Party though, so they don't matter much.
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Thor McOdin

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The first paragraph proves that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. You point me out for being a liberal, as I point you out for being a conservative. Don't think that our differences mean that we can't talk to one another.

As for Keith, he is a Monday morning quarterback...just like everyone else. However, unlike Tucker Carlson, John Gibson, Neil Cavuto, Paula Zahn, Wolf Blitzer, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Nancy Grace, and Bill O' Reilly, he at least makes sense when he addresses his arguments.

Paragraph three, when did I ever mention Michael Moore? Moore isn't a journalist, he is a filmmaker. He never said it was the truth, but rather it was all his opinion. You said you would take my arguments with a grain of salt. Dude, I take HIS arguments with a grain of salt.

As for paragraph four, don't you think that lack of sugar production has to do with the fact that corn, coal, and oil groups are lobbying against such competitors? I come from a state high in coal, but don't you think that this has something to do with the manufacturing of ethanol? After all, sugar ethanol may be 8-times more efficient than corn. How would that make the midwest farmers and neoconservative lobbying groups look if it was discovered that sugar ethanol was more efficient and actually put less greenhouse gas into the environment?

Amyral, I don't like to argue in this way because you are strong in your arguments. Actually, I am glad to see such things. I am glad to see people taking a liking to politics. However, don't catch feelings about stuff said on a message board. Go out on Tuesday and voice your feelings in the voting box.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thor McOdin wrote:
However, don't catch feelings about stuff said on a message board. Go out on Tuesday and voice your feelings in the voting box.


Amen to that bro! The best way to settle this is to go out, waiting in line, and voting for whichever candidate you feel is best. Neglecting your duty to vote does not solve matters we are facing in this country, its actually part of the problem. You get paid if you are on the clock at work, your employer must pay you during the time you go and vote. So really...no excuses AMERICA! heh :D
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's too late if you havn't registered to vote yet (well, at least in Ohio), but I've been registered for a long while, and I certainly will vote on Tuesday. To me, the Democrats in the USA are too conservative; I grew up in a communist neighborhood in Japan in a traditionally communist city, so I'm very much to the left. I'm entirely dissatisfied and disillusioned with the political system in the USA, which is far too influenced by interest groups. The lack of political intrest by the common folk is also sad to see; they only do anything when the TV tells them to think a certain way, etc. Their short attention span is taken advantage by the media, which are themselves interest groups, inbred with the established political "aristocracy." Truly, the founding fathers must be rolling in their graves. We've turned into a nation of people who have personal rights that those in other nations can only dream of having, yet we don't give a rats-ass about these rights we have, and squander them in exchange of worthless vanity. Thus, voting is always for the "lesser of the two evils," and in the case of this mid-term election, I'm going with the democrats; they're the lesser of the two evils in my eyes.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

You said you would take my arguments with a grain of salt. Dude, I take HIS arguments with a grain of salt.

He has arguments? I thought he just had whines.

Quote:

The lack of political intrest by the common folk is also sad to see; they only do anything when the TV tells them to think a certain way, etc. Their short attention span is taken advantage by the media, which are themselves interest groups, inbred with the established political "aristocracy."

That's why I like to get my information via the internets - not on blogs and stuff, but from actual discussion on message boards like so.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yvl wrote:
I certainly have been. Banning a harmless way to save countless lives? Doing things just because it says so in the Bible, with absoloutely no non-religous moral reason whatsoever? Legalizing torture? Certainly seems evil to me.


It's not like the democrats have proven much better in similar situations, or are we forgetting FDR's nice little internment camps.

And "non-religous moral reason" is a pretty ridiculous statement, as when people are religious, that defines their moral belief, so it's basically criticism for being religious, whether that criticism was intentional or not.

The harmless way to save countless lives? What exactly are you referring to? If it's stem cell research, you are pretty far off base for multiple reasons. First of all, it is not banned. Research can and still is being done. The law is that federal funds cannot be used when the cells are derived from destroying an embryo.. That law is the known as the Dickey Amendment (named after the republican senator who wrote it). However the Dickey Amendment was signed into law by Bill Clinton, not by a Bush. That doesnt' change the fact that Bush veteoed the law that would have reversed it. However, Bush is the first to provide federal funding for the research.

Or is there something else and I'm completely off base for thinking you are referring to that?

As for torture, yes, they did legalize certain forms of it, so you'll find no argument from me.

Thor McOdin wrote:
The first paragraph proves that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. You point me out for being a liberal, as I point you out for being a conservative. Don't think that our differences mean that we can't talk to one another.


I pride myself on being an equal opportunity cynic. I absolutely agree that the federal government is due for a change. However, I am not nearly as optimistic about the democratic party, as I see just as many lies, cheats and scoundrels in it. But yes, I agree that we can speak to one another cordially. I will most likely be voting democrat if I vote (I'm also a journalist who is going to be covering the election, so I'm debating whether it is a conflict of interest).

Thor McOdin wrote:

As for Keith, he is a Monday morning quarterback...just like everyone else. However, unlike Tucker Carlson, John Gibson, Neil Cavuto, Paula Zahn, Wolf Blitzer, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Nancy Grace, and Bill O' Reilly, he at least makes sense when he addresses his arguments.


I disagree. I think he takes whatever the liberal hype that goes along with it and runs it to the extremes. Again, I think his Kerry-Joke rant goes through that, where he pretty much denies that the statement even could be taken in the way that the republicans have spun it. To me, that's completely and utterly idiotic, because when you take his words at face value, that's one of the basic definitions. He spends much of his rants slamming the administration (the same way O'Reilly spends his time berating his guests). I think he has been among the worst political commentators I've ever heard, and I have heard all of those. I'll put him about O'Reilly and on the same level as Limbaugh. But I'm not going to say he is any more credible than that.

Thor McOdin wrote:
Paragraph three, when did I ever mention Michael Moore? Moore isn't a journalist, he is a filmmaker. He never said it was the truth, but rather it was all his opinion. You said you would take my arguments with a grain of salt. Dude, I take HIS arguments with a grain of salt.


Well, for starters, I was mentioning him in relation to the democrats calling the republican party evil. Secondly, I don't take his arguments with anything, because I know he is propaganda artist. However, he has at many points pushed that what he has put down is truth. He's challenged his critics to find an explicit lie in his works, in which his journalism experience (whatever limited he had before dropping out) kicks in.

Thor McOdin wrote:
As for paragraph four, don't you think that lack of sugar production has to do with the fact that corn, coal, and oil groups are lobbying against such competitors?


I think that goes without saying, but even before the alternative energy boom, US sugar producers were against important the sugar, and those tariff's have been held through the various administrations.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Even if I was able to vote this year, I wouldn't. Both the people running for governor of Illinois are bad IMO. Blagojevich(sp?) doesn't seem to know what he's doing half the time and Topinka....I think she would be bad for Illinois as well. So.....Go Green Party!!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Both Democracy and Republican parties can always end up going to an extreme level. With Democracy sure they say there more focused for the people....but really its under THERE control and as they choose under when you should recieve aid. In the end, it can get as far as bad with the way Castro runs Cuba. Eventually only the rich will be rich, leaving no way for anyone to get ahead. You work harder then someone, but you'll see similiar pay. When were unemployed....we should get our unemployment REGARDLESS, thats our own money and really it shouldn't be a god damn hassle to attain what is ours!

With the Republicans, they focus more on Corporate America and the power lies within the booming businesses. Seeing how our economy is pretty sh*^ty right now, this is definitely not the answer nor way to be leading our country now. Though this is the best solution for anyone working in major corporations and brings in more job opportunities, what about times when you are desperate and need aid from your country.

Like I said, pick your poison, both parties will have their negative consequences in the end. It all started with FDR establishing Social Security and now its a part of the system that cannot be removed. We get taxed out of that money for every job we work, and when it comes time to collect you don't even see near as much as you should've probably recieved. Now its permenantly within our system because you have to think about all the people who have been working 20 years and our saving up.......can't just completely blank out there money now either. The cycle continues with our generation, we work and thats also being processed out of our own paychecks......its sad really.

How's all that for the "American Dream" hehehe * not laughing in a good way either*. The only way that can ever exist, our " American Dream" is if your a foreign business owner in California and running cheap labor jobs somewhere in Asia or Latin America paying the employees like $1.75-$3.00 hourly. Again no fair to Americans seeking employment and another way the rich stay richer. Otherwise they'd have to cough up * well in California in January 2007 now* $7.15 hourly.

At least Canada supplies free Health insurance, thats something I do admire in their government. Its something we as Americans are entitled to at least in my own opinion! :P
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think the free health care system, as applied in other places, would be anything but a horrid nightmare to apply here, so I'm not for implementing a system like that here. I think we'd need to come up with a system that would work here, not providing completely free health care, but a much cheaper insurance for the lower tax brackets.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Amyral wrote:
Yvl wrote:
I certainly have been. Banning a harmless way to save countless lives? Doing things just because it says so in the Bible, with absoloutely no non-religous moral reason whatsoever? Legalizing torture? Certainly seems evil to me.


And "non-religous moral reason" is a pretty ridiculous statement, as when people are religious, that defines their moral belief, so it's basically criticism for being religious, whether that criticism was intentional or not.



Amyral, you have to keep in mind that Yvl is right to a certain extent. 1/4 of the U.S.A believes in the Rapture and it will take place in their lifetime. To make things more interesting, Jerry Falwell publicly stated on 60 Minutes that Mohammed was a terrorist and that the Anitchrist was a Jew. The scary thing is that these people have power. In fact, Dubya is one of them. To a certain extent, this is a part of his moral and religious beliefs and he is running our country! To make matters even MORE interesting, Haggard was the president of the church of some thirty million individuals whom supported the Bush in nearly all of his principles (and we all know what happened with that dude). Evolution also isn't accepted by the majority in this country because "God told them so." We are subject to this material even though we aren't a part of this faith. That isn't fair at all.

As for Keith again, at least he doesn't say that we are going to die every single day. As I have stated, I abhor Glenn Beck. He has publicly stated we would die nearly every day he has been on the air. At least Keith, some one on the opposite end, is able to point out that this is not the case, thereby restoring some mental clarity to a word chockfull of fear.

Amyral, I am enjoying this debate. I haven't had one of these in a long time! I wish you great luck when you cover the elections.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
1/4 of the U.S.A believes in the Rapture and it will take place in their lifetime. To make things more interesting, Jerry Falwell publicly stated on 60 Minutes that Mohammed was a terrorist and that the Anitchrist was a Jew. The scary thing is that these people have power. In fact, Dubya is one of them. To a certain extent, this is a part of his moral and religious beliefs and he is running our country!


Do not lump Dubya into the category of religious nutjobs. He doesn't believe that the Antichrist was a Jew or that Mohammed was a terrorist. If he thought this, there would be no way that he would be the President of the United States. He may be religious, but I don't think there is anything wrong with that (and I'm not even religious). Him being religious doesn't automatically mean he is a devout supporter of nutjobs like Falwell. It is almost insulting that you would label Bush as "one of them."
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

It's not like the democrats have proven much better in similar situations, or are we forgetting FDR's nice little internment camps.

From 70 years ago? I hardly think that has a bearing on contemporary politics.

Quote:

And "non-religous moral reason" is a pretty ridiculous statement, as when people are religious, that defines their moral belief, so it's basically criticism for being religious, whether that criticism was intentional or not.

There is a constitutional seperation of church and state. If your OWN beliefs are influenced by religon, fine, but it does not have a place in our government unless there is a reason outside of religon for making the law.

Quote:

The law is that federal funds cannot be used when the cells are derived from destroying an embryo. . . However, Bush is the first to provide federal funding for the research.

Wait, what?

Chris Lightfellow wrote:

So.....Go Green Party!!

Oh god, anyone but them...

Quote:

Both Democracy and Republican parties can always end up going to an extreme level. With Democracy sure they say there more focused for the people....but really its under THERE control and as they choose under when you should recieve aid. In the end, it can get as far as bad with the way Castro runs Cuba. Eventually only the rich will be rich, leaving no way for anyone to get ahead. You work harder then someone, but you'll see similiar pay. When were unemployed....we should get our unemployment REGARDLESS, thats our own money and really it shouldn't be a god damn hassle to attain what is ours!

Don't lump Communists with Democrats. There is a seperate party for that.

Quote:

With the Republicans, they focus more on Corporate America and the power lies within the booming businesses. Seeing how our economy is pretty sh*^ty right now, this is definitely not the answer nor way to be leading our country now. Though this is the best solution for anyone working in major corporations and brings in more job opportunities, what about times when you are desperate and need aid from your country.

The idea behind that as well is that if you win over big businesses, they will help to fund your campaigns.

Quote:

Amyral, you have to keep in mind that Yvl is right to a certain extent. 1/4 of the U.S.A believes in the Rapture and it will take place in their lifetime. To make things more interesting, Jerry Falwell publicly stated on 60 Minutes that Mohammed was a terrorist and that the Anitchrist was a Jew. The scary thing is that these people have power. In fact, Dubya is one of them. To a certain extent, this is a part of his moral and religious beliefs and he is running our country! To make matters even MORE interesting, Haggard was the president of the church of some thirty million individuals whom supported the Bush in nearly all of his principles (and we all know what happened with that dude). Evolution also isn't accepted by the majority in this country because "God told them so." We are subject to this material even though we aren't a part of this faith. That isn't fair at all.

As I mentioned earlier, Bush actually calls those people (who he pretends to support) "the nuts."
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