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Aurelien
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 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| No, I mean accepting the changes including their flaws with optimism. |
How can you accept changes that you don't like with optimism? It doesn't make much sense to me. Being optimistic is one thing, but being optimistic when you don't like something is a bit weird. If you don't like watching The OC, I don't think you'd be optimistic watching Beverly Hills 90210, man. It's just the nature of humans.
You can be optimistic about Buddy System because you enjoyed it. Others who don't won't be optimistic about it.
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| They should have developed Suikoden III's system. |
But why? You said that the majority at the moment are afraid of changes. So using that logic, at the time of Suikoden IV's development, Konami did the right thing by following what these majority wanted by not developing Suikoden III's system. You said it yourself, the majority are afraid of changes.
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| They were intending to please the fans, but they utterly failed. They thought they could please the fans by reverting back to the old system, but they didn't. As I said, their main job is to please the fans. Would you think they did that to be hated? I don't think so. Tell me of one company who makes games to be hated. |
No, I don't think that Konami did it to be hated, but I don't think that they did it because they were listening to the fans either. I just think that it was something different that they wanted to do. With Suikoden IV's main aim was to be 'different' than previous Suikoden games, in a sense that they wanted to make things very quick-simple-back-to-basic, using 4-man party instead of 6-man party was a logical step to take. It just turned out to be a not popular idea because that put Suikoden IV similar to many other RPGs out there.
So just because Konami didn't do it to be hated by the fans, it doesn't mean that they did it to please the fans. Do you seriously think that there are lots of fans who wanted to have 4-man party instead of 6-man party? Not really.
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| Do I want that to be changed you ask? I'm fine with, it if it fits perfectly. But if Konami decides to change it, they can do so as they please. I will live through with it, and will enjoy it as much as I can. |
Hahahaha. Exactly. When you have got a battle system that you actually liked, you'd prefer to keep it rather than being changed. While you said that Konami can change it if they want to do so, I doubt that you would be enthusiastic about the changes if someone suggested something else. Sadly, you automatically assume that people preferring things the way they like it as being afraid of changes.
I bet that if you like the battle system of Suikoden VI, and then it is changed into something that you like less for Suikoden VII, you would say something along the line of "Man, Suikoden VI's battle system is much better, I wish they wouldn't have changed it" which is a very normal response to have.
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| Let me make one thing clear. I am not solely using the people at SuikoX as examples. I am also talking about the people I have met in real life make comments and suggestions about Suikoden. And I know a lot of them. A lot more than here in SuikoX. I am also non-Japanese. |
I'm just curious here, but how many people are you talking about in this case? Because I doubt that I even have 1,000 friends, let alone knowing 1,000 people that actually like Suikoden. But then again, maybe you're very popular in real life, I don't know. I'm curious how many though. Since you mentioned a lot more than in Suikox (we have 1,800s members here), I'm guessing you're talking about 3,000 people in real life? Please answer this. I'm really curious.
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| It should not be the changes Konami make that should adjust to the fans but the fans should adjust to the changes. |
You are contradicting yourself, Ryusei. You said it before that Konami's job is to please the fans. Therefore they should listen to the majority. But now you said that it's actually the fans that should adjust to the changes made by Konami regardless it made them happy or not. Wouldn't that mean that Konami should just do whatever they want instead of listening to the so called majority of the fans? Why bother listening to what the fans wanted if you expect the fans to be the one adjusting to the product?
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| No, I won't support Konami if it ever goes that way. That is why I want the players to be the ones to adapt to the changes. If the majority would be more receptive to the changes made, then their suggestions would be for the improvement of the flaws made by the previous installments. That should be when Konami should "listen" to the fans. |
So basically you want Konami to listen to the majority of the fans. But before listening to the majority of the fans, you want the majority of the fans to change first. And by changing you meant to change into "being more optimistic about changes". And by that, you meant for the majority of the fans to change into being more like you (a person who wants changes in Suikoden series).
So in short, you want Konami to listen to you. Not the majority. But you, as an individual. Not going to happen, my friend.
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| They can, if the majority of the fans become more receptive than afraid of the changes. |
Yes they can if the majority of the fans become more like you. But we have established that you are not the majority. So they can't.
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| Yes, I am not the majority. But what makes up the majority? Isn't it the individuals who make up the majority? |
You are correct that what makes up the majority are individuals. But one thing you're missing out is that these individuals must share something similar as their trait.
For example: The majority of Indonesians are Muslims. So if I'm not a Muslim, even though I'm an individual, I am not a part of the majority.
And you have established that the majority of the Suikoden fans are afraid of changes. On the other hand, you embrace changes. Therefore, you are not a part of the majority despite being an individual because you don't share the similar trait of being afraid of changes.
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| I said the majority knows what should be changed, and I'm still sticking to what I said. |
I'm sorry if I sound harsh. While you said that the majority knows what should be changed, you're just sugar-coating of what you really meant. You meant you know what should be changed. I'll show it why in the next paragraph when you're talking about your examples.
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| Like for example, the Buddy System was widely disliked by the majority, so it is something which should be changed. Another one is the removal of the skill system. Most of the fans disliked it when it was removed, so it should be changed: it should be brought back. Another one is the 4-man party of Suikoden IV. It was disliked it so it should be changed back to six. |
Here is my proof. There are 3 cases you mentioned here.
1. Buddy System -> disliked ==> should be changed
2. Removal of Skill System -> disliked ==> should be brought back
3. 4-man Party -> disliked ==> should be changed back to 6-man party
See that? All three of them share a similarity. You said all three of them are disliked. But how come you said that only 2 of them should be brought/changed back like they used to be (bring back Skill System like in Suikoden III, and change back into 6-man party like in Suikoden I, II, III)? How come Buddy System shouldn't be changed back and instead you said that it should be changed (or in other words, improved)?
This clearly shows that for point #2, and point #3, you share the similar opinion with the majority. You wanted Skill System back, and you wanted 6-man party again. Therefore, you have no problem with them going back to the "tradition" as long as you like it too. However, you want Buddy System to be improved instead of going back to the old battle system. Therefore, suddenly you have a problem with going back to "tradition". You can't have it both ways.
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| As I said, the majority should be more receptive to the changes and make constructive comments to improve the suggestions made by some of the fans. |
And I disagree with it. I think everyone should just be however they are like. Why should they change into being more receptive to the changes if that's not what they want? Must we all like all different kind of music in the world? Not really. If I like ballad, then I don't have to listen to punk rock. So I don't have to be more receptive to punk rock by any means if I don't want to.
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| How can you accept changes that you don't like with optimism? It doesn't make much sense to me. Being optimistic is one thing, but being optimistic when you don't like something is a bit weird. If you don't like watching The OC, I don't think you'd be optimistic watching Beverly Hills 90210, man. It's just the nature of humans. |
Think of it this way. You flunked your exam on Mathematics. What are you supposed to do? Would you just cry and whine about it? No. You should do something about it. You should stop making foolishness and start fixing your study life. Start studying, listen attentively to your teacher and be participative in class. That is how optimism works. Looking at the bright side of life.
Now, to apply this in Suikoden, people must accept the flaws made by Konami. Take them in as flaws and be optimistic about them. Think of the future. What could be done to improve these flaws? Then people could start making suggestions on how these flaws could be improved. That, BP, is optimism. Looking at things possitively.
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| You can be optimistic about Buddy System because you enjoyed it. Others who don't won't be optimistic about it. |
One thing, BP. I liked the Battle System in Suikoden III except/i] for the Buddy System. It was the [i]only thing in the system I didn't like. Everything else was good enough.
But everyone else can be optimistic about it. All can be optimistic about the Buddy System even if they didn't like it. Optimism is thinking about something bad in a possitive way. It is not only applicable to only those who liked what they received. Do you think the guy who flunked his exam liked it? No. But he was looking optimistic about it. He wanted to be better. He did something about it. That is optimism.
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| But why? You said that the majority at the moment are afraid of changes. So using that logic, at the time of Suikoden IV's development, Konami did the right thing by following what these majority wanted by not developing Suikoden III's system. You said it yourself, the majority are afraid of changes. |
As I said many times, the fans should adjust to the changes. They must be optimistic about these changes, not pessimistic about them. The way I see things, they look at the suggestions being made in a negative way. That shouldn't be the case.
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| No, I don't think that Konami did it to be hated, but I don't think that they did it because they were listening to the fans either. I just think that it was something different that they wanted to do. With Suikoden IV's main aim was to be 'different' than previous Suikoden games, in a sense that they wanted to make things very quick-simple-back-to-basic, using 4-man party instead of 6-man party was a logical step to take. It just turned out to be a not popular idea because that put Suikoden IV similar to many other RPGs out there. |
And not to please the fans? I don't think so. So you mean to say they were prioritizing the innovation of Suikoden IV over the fans' pleasure? I don't think that way. If I were the king of the entire gaming world, I would have destroyed Konami because of their foolishness: not thinking of the fans.
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| Hahahaha. Exactly. When you have got a battle system that you actually liked, you'd prefer to keep it rather than being changed. While you said that Konami can change it if they want to do so, I doubt that you would be enthusiastic about the changes if someone suggested something else. Sadly, you automatically assume that people preferring things the way they like it as being afraid of changes. |
Why, if you think I wouldn't be enthusiastic about it, BP, then you're mistaken. I would be excited about it. Excited over what new things they would add to what I thought was "the perfect" Battle System. I am being optimistic about it, as everyone else should be.
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| I bet that if you like the battle system of Suikoden VI, and then it is changed into something that you like less for Suikoden VII, you would say something along the line of "Man, Suikoden VI's battle system is much better, I wish they wouldn't have changed it" which is a very normal response to have. |
Oh no I won't. I won't be whining over it, I bet you. I'd rather be making suggestions on how this new system can be further refined than whining over it. It would be better that way.
But if they would be degrading the so-called "perfect" battle system, then Konami wasn't doing their job of listening to the fans. The fans and the makers should be doing their own job. The fans' job being to let their voices be heard by the makers, and the makers listening to the fans.
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| I'm just curious here, but how many people are you talking about in this case? Because I doubt that I even have 1,000 friends, let alone knowing 1,000 people that actually like Suikoden. But then again, maybe you're very popular in real life, I don't know. I'm curious how many though. Since you mentioned a lot more than in Suikox (we have 1,800s members here), I'm guessing you're talking about 3,000 people in real life? Please answer this. I'm really curious. |
What I meant was that more than the people I know of here in SuikoX. There are really a lot of peple here in this site whom I have no idea who they are. They might be just alternate accounts, I think. So I am only counting those who I know well enough.
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| You are contradicting yourself, Ryusei. You said it before that Konami's job is to please the fans. Therefore they should listen to the majority. But now you said that it's actually the fans that should adjust to the changes made by Konami regardless it made them happy or not. Wouldn't that mean that Konami should just do whatever they want instead of listening to the so called majority of the fans? Why bother listening to what the fans wanted if you expect the fans to be the one adjusting to the product? |
As I said earlier, the fans and the makers must do their own jobs. If only the fans would accept the flaws made by Konami and make suggestions about them, and if only Konami would listen to the fans, then Konami would make games which would please the fans. They would be filling in their roles of statisfying the fans.
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| So basically you want Konami to listen to the majority of the fans. But before listening to the majority of the fans, you want the majority of the fans to change first. And by changing you meant to change into "being more optimistic about changes". And by that, you meant for the majority of the fans to change into being more like you (a person who wants changes in Suikoden series). |
Oh no, I don't mean that. I want the fans to be optimistic about the changes. Nothing more. Take the suggestions of other fans, and make comments which would help build up these suggestions. Rather than being pessimistic about these changes.
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| So in short, you want Konami to listen to you. Not the majority. But you, as an individual. Not going to happen, my friend. |
Nope, I want Konami to listen to fans who changed from being pessimistic to being optimistic. That's it.
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| Yes they can if the majority of the fans become more like you. But we have established that you are not the majority. So they can't. |
Become like me? No one in the world can become like me, BP. Just as no one in the world can become like you, or George Bush, or Mahatma Gandhi, or anyone else. They only need be optimistic. That is enough.
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| You are correct that what makes up the majority are individuals. But one thing you're missing out is that these individuals must share something similar as their trait. |
And this similar trait that they must possess is optimism. Optimism to the flaws and mistakes made by Konami.
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| For example: The majority of Indonesians are Muslims. So if I'm not a Muslim, even though I'm an individual, I am not a part of the majority. |
And if you change yourself into a Muslim, then you're part of the majority. If each and everyone of the Suikoden fans would become optimistic, then the majority of the fans would be optimistic.
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| I'm sorry if I sound harsh. While you said that the majority knows what should be changed, you're just sugar-coating of what you really meant. You meant you know what should be changed. I'll show it why in the next paragraph when you're talking about your examples. |
I know? Then how come all of the people are bashing Suikoden IV? How did the people know that the removal of the Skill System was not a good move? They already know it, BP. They just need to be optimistic about what they know and do something about it.
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| See that? All three of them share a similarity. You said all three of them are disliked. But how come you said that only 2 of them should be brought/changed back like they used to be (bring back Skill System like in Suikoden III, and change back into 6-man party like in Suikoden I, II, III)? How come Buddy System shouldn't be changed back and instead you said that it should be changed (or in other words, improved)? |
Because many people disliked it, including myself, and as I think about it, you too, BP. The change that must be brought to that Battle System should have been the removal of the Buddy System. That is how they should have improved upon it, not bring back what's old.
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| And I disagree with it. I think everyone should just be however they are like. Why should they change into being more receptive to the changes if that's not what they want? Must we all like all different kind of music in the world? Not really. If I like ballad, then I don't have to listen to punk rock. So I don't have to be more receptive to punk rock by any means if I don't want to. |
If you don't want punk rock, you don't have to. But you could at least respect what the punk rockers like, and not act disrespectful to them. In other words, don't discriminate them. There's a difference in that. |
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Dragonstar13
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry I haven't read all the posts, but I don't think you're being entirely fair. There are some changes which has been bashed, that is true, however there are some changes which has been praised by the fans. Both veterans and new players.
Suikoden 3, the only changes complained was the Trinity system, and the battle system. However, the fans loved the theater, the music, and most of all the NEW skill system. In fact, a lot of people have been wanting it back. The story itself varies from person to person. Some felt it was too short, others felt it was the best Suikoden ever.
Suikoden 4, the first time Jeanne was actually playable, instead of being a mere support character. It was also the first Suikoden to have voices, trying to embrace the future of games. They introduced new types of characters like the Nekos, and had some interesting games. I for one liked the ship battles, and I've been playing Suikoden since S2 was released.
So I don't see fans only complaining about changes, I see them liking them as well. Just because some of us prefer the old battle system, doesn't mean we don't want to see new ideas either. There are plenty of veteran fans who loved the changes, just not the all the same ones. Some like the Trinity system, some like the Tenkai hero concept better. I don't see Suikoden fans being afraid of change, but you have to keep in mind not everyone is going to like the change. It's a bothersome system, makes the game seem boring, no real good challenging games, etc.
So again, I don't think it's fair for you to say Suikoden fans are afraid of change, just because some people(myself included) didn't like some of the changes. There's plenty of changes in the Suikoden games people actually do like.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Think of it this way. You flunked your exam on Mathematics. What are you supposed to do? Would you just cry and whine about it? No. You should do something about it. You should stop making foolishness and start fixing your study life. Start studying, listen attentively to your teacher and be participative in class. That is how optimism works. Looking at the bright side of life. |
Your analogy is flawed. A better analogy is if you've studied in a certain way for the first two Mathematics exams. You got 90/100 on both (Suikoden I&II). Then you changed the way you study for your third exam and got 70/100 (Suikoden III). Would you continue to use your new method of studying? Not really. Instead, you go back to the previous method (which you know worked well) AND improve it to get the extra 10 points to try to get to 100/100 if you can.
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| The way I see things, they look at the suggestions being made in a negative way. That shouldn't be the case. |
Has it ever occurred to you that they looked at the suggestions in a negative simply because they think the suggestions sucked? If I suggest to cook fried chicken and dog poo, would you still be optimistic about the taste? Not really. No matter how optimistic you are, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be pessimistic about the taste of my new meal. These people are being negative because they don't like the suggestions. Not because they are against changes, but because they don't like the suggestions.
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| And not to please the fans? I don't think so. |
I've made it quite clear when I said that I don't think Konami did it to be hated by the fans. Please read my post again. Thank you.
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| So you mean to say they were prioritizing the innovation of Suikoden IV over the fans' pleasure? I don't think that way. |
I'll use another analogy here. Let's use a musician as an example. They have fans like Suikoden, and they make a product like Konami. Sure they think about what the fans would like when they wrote a song. But that doesn't mean that they only make songs to please the fans. They have what is called as an artistic needs/wants. They want to make songs that they like, and then hope that the fans see it that way and like the songs too.
This is the case with Suikoden IV. Konami had a vision of simplicity in the game. They went ahead with the idea and hoped that the fans liked it. Unfortunately, the fans didn't like it. It's not because Konami didn't care about the fans. It's just that they wanted to try something different. Sometimes it paid off, sometimes it didn't. That's just the way it is. And in case of Suikoden IV, it didn't pay off.
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| Why, if you think I wouldn't be enthusiastic about it, BP, then you're mistaken. I would be excited about it. Excited over what new things they would add to what I thought was "the perfect" Battle System. I am being optimistic about it, as everyone else should be. |
Are you sure? I don't remember you being enthusiastic about the hypothetical "Suikoden spin-offs", Ryusei. Take a look of that thread that you made yourself in http://www.suikox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20434 We were simply talking about hypothetical spin-offs and you were being negative already without even having these spin-offs really made yet.
So I'm sorry, I don't believe that you would be enthusiastic about the change from your perfect battle system to be honest. To me, you're just like everyone else in this world (including myself). We look forward to changes if we think the changes are good, but we don't look forward to changes if we think the changes are bad (as clearly shown by your overly negative reaction to these hypothetical spin-offs).
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| So I am only counting those who I know well enough. |
So how many are we really talking about here?
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| I want the fans to be optimistic about the changes. Nothing more. Take the suggestions of other fans, and make comments which would help build up these suggestions. Rather than being pessimistic about these changes. |
If you are so optimistic, why were you being overly negative when we were talking about hypothetical spin-offs?
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| And if you change yourself into a Muslim, then you're part of the majority. If each and everyone of the Suikoden fans would become optimistic, then the majority of the fans would be optimistic. |
HAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA! I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you, but I had to laugh since it's really funny. Yes, you are right that if I change myself into a Muslim, then I'm a part of the majority. So let's do that to you too. You said that the majority of Suikoden fans are pessimistic about changes. So why don't you change into being pessimistic too so that you can be a part of the majority?
Or are you suggesting for all Muslims in Indonesia to change religion so that I can be a part of the majority without having to change myself? That seems to be the way you want it to be. You want the majority of Suikoden fans to be optimistic so that you can be a part of majority without having to change.
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| They just need to be optimistic about what they know and do something about it. |
Okay let's be optimistic. What can we do about it? Take over Konami and force them to make the game as how we want it to be? We can't even make them release Suikoden III PAL. We can't even make them translate SuikodeGaiden series. And you think there's something we can do about it?
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| That is how they should have improved upon it, not bring back what's old. |
Then why did you say that they should change 4-man party back to what's old (6-man party)? You're being inconsistent with what you're saying.
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| If you don't want punk rock, you don't have to. But you could at least respect what the punk rockers like, and not act disrespectful to them. In other words, don't discriminate them. There's a difference in that. |
I agree. That's why I think you should also respect others who are pessimistic about changes and respect their preference instead of expecting them to change into being optimistic. I respect punk rockers and never asked them to sing ballad.
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Your analogy is flawed. A better analogy is if you've studied in a certain way for the first two Mathematics exams. You got 90/100 on both (Suikoden I&II). Then you changed the way you study for your third exam and got 70/100 (Suikoden III). Would you continue to use your new method of studying? Not really. Instead, you go back to the previous method (which you know worked well) AND improve it to get the extra 10 points to try to get to 100/100 if you can. |
That analogy was an analogy about how optimism works, BP. Your analogy war far fetched from giving out the meaning of optimism, in my opinion.
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| Has it ever occurred to you that they looked at the suggestions in a negative simply because they think the suggestions sucked? If I suggest to cook fried chicken and dog poo, would you still be optimistic about the taste? Not really. No matter how optimistic you are, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be pessimistic about the taste of my new meal. These people are being negative because they don't like the suggestions. Not because they are against changes, but because they don't like the suggestions. |
And has it ever occured to you that you can make constructive critisism to make that ugly suggestion better?
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| I've made it quite clear when I said that I don't think Konami did it to be hated by the fans. Please read my post again. Thank you. |
If that's what you think, then I won't argue over it. I already said what I thought about that, and I won't repeat it again. I won't be forcing you to believe what I believe.
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| Are you sure? I don't remember you being enthusiastic about the hypothetical "Suikoden spin-offs", Ryusei. Take a look of that thread that you made yourself in http://www.suikox.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20434 We were simply talking about hypothetical spin-offs and you were being negative already without even having these spin-offs really made yet. |
Yes I was. And that was before I even thought about this. I did some time of thinking while I was away some 3 or 4 days from this site. That was when I thought about this thing I currently am having an argument on. I said Suikoden fans are afraid of change. I too, am included in that. I just have recently changed my view since those days I was away from this site.
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| So I'm sorry, I don't believe that you would be enthusiastic about the change from your perfect battle system to be honest. |
Believe what you will, Black Pesmerga. I won't force you to believe what I said above. I bet my whole life I am telling the truth, and if you still won't believe that, I can't do anything about it.
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| So how many are we really talking about here? |
Just a few. I only know a few people here in SuikoX. Some of my countrymen and a few people who I see post a lot. I am just new to this site, and seeing that I am a wanderer without any nation, I only know few guys here.
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| If you are so optimistic, why were you being overly negative when we were talking about hypothetical spin-offs? |
Like I said above, that was before. I recognize my mistake in being so pessimistic about these changes. I now have a new view in new things.
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| HAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA! I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you, but I had to laugh since it's really funny. Yes, you are right that if I change myself into a Muslim, then I'm a part of the majority. So let's do that to you too. You said that the majority of Suikoden fans are pessimistic about changes. So why don't you change into being pessimistic too so that you can be a part of the majority? |
I did the reverse, BP. I changed from being the pessimistic guy I was. Considering that I changed from being pessimistic, I don't think I would like to change back again.
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| Or are you suggesting for all Muslims in Indonesia to change religion so that I can be a part of the majority without having to change myself? That seems to be the way you want it to be. You want the majority of Suikoden fans to be optimistic so that you can be a part of majority without having to change. |
Religion and attitude are two different things. It would be hard to convert all the people in the world into a certain religion. You could end up dead like some missionaries. But if we are talking about attitude here, it would be easier. What would you lose if you change into an optimistic person from a pessimistic person? I think it's a win-win situation.
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| Okay let's be optimistic. What can we do about it? Take over Konami and force them to make the game as how we want it to be? We can't even make them release Suikoden III PAL. We can't even make them translate SuikodeGaiden series. And you think there's something we can do about it? |
That's when Konami should start hearing the fans out. They could, for example, create a suggestion site for Suikoden fans as a start. There the fans could pour out their suggestions and ideas for Suikoden games. There, the fans could also address the flaws Konami made in their games.
You don't have to take over Konami to let your voice be heard.
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| Then why did you say that they should change 4-man party back to what's old (6-man party)? You're being inconsistent with what you're saying. |
Oh well, here I go again.
As a said in my earlier posts, the way Konami should change it is to take out what's flawed but keep what's good. Let's take Suikoden III's battle system for example. The flaw is the Buddy System. Take out the buddy system from the battle system but keep what's left behind and work on it. Do you understand now?
Oh, and I just noticed you haven't answered my initial question, Black Pesmerga. Do you personally think the Suikoden fans are afraid of change? If you already answered that, then don't bother answering to this question. I might have just missed it. I am very interested in what you have to say. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Your analogy war far fetched from giving out the meaning of optimism, in my opinion. |
My analogy was meant to compare it with the situation of Suikoden I to Suikoden III development while inserting the whole optimism bit. I understand what being optimistic is about, so there is no need to make an analogy to explain something that is quite obvious (a.k.a. being optimistic).
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| And has it ever occured to you that you can make constructive critisism to make that ugly suggestion better? |
It most definitely has occurred to me that I can make constructive critisism to the suggestion. And I did that on those that I think can be improved (according to my own preference obviously). However, it's not for every single thing because there are things that I like it the way it is. Just like in everything else in this life. There are some that you want to change, there are some that you want to keep as is (no one changes hairstyle every single day, no?).
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| That's when Konami should start hearing the fans out. They could, for example, create a suggestion site for Suikoden fans as a start. There the fans could pour out their suggestions and ideas for Suikoden games. There, the fans could also address the flaws Konami made in their games. |
So basically .... there's nothing we can do? I mean, you said it yourself that now it's up to Konami to say create a suggestion site. That means there's nothing we can do, right? What can we do to make Konami open a suggestion site? Nothing.
Not to mentioned that I've explained it to you before that they are not allowed to listen to specific ideas from the fans for legal purposes. So not only that there's nothing we can do about it, they can't even do so even if they want to.
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| As a said in my earlier posts, the way Konami should change it is to take out what's flawed but keep what's good. Let's take Suikoden III's battle system for example. The flaw is the Buddy System. Take out the buddy system from the battle system but keep what's left behind and work on it. Do you understand now? |
Nope, sorry. I was not talking about Buddy System in Suikoden III. I was talking about 4-man party of Suikoden IV. Please don't change the point of my post. When you quoted my post, it was clear that I was talking about the 4-man party's case. I don't understand why you suddenly ignored it and talked about Buddy System instead.
You said that 4-man party should be changed back to 6-man party. But throughout this thread, you've been very anti-go-back-to-old-times (you've been all "Let's change this and that"). And according to your optimistic approach, shouldn't you be suggesting the 4-man party to be improved rather than to be changed back into 6-man party like in Suikoden I? Like I said, you're being inconsistent. And that proves that you're no different than everyone else in a sense that you don't mind "changing back to the way it was" if that is about something that you like (6-man party).
The only reason why you want the battle system to be "improved" is not because you're optimistic, but because you think the current battle system is bloody boring. Since 6-man party is not something that bore you, you don't mind if we kept the 6-man party. That's the fact. That's why you've only been able to give "battle system" as the thing to talk about changes. You can't really think of anything else because most likely nothing else bores you other than the battle system that you considered as weak and boring.
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| Oh, and I just noticed you haven't answered my initial question, Black Pesmerga. Do you personally think the Suikoden fans are afraid of change? |
I don't believe that Suikoden fans are afraid of changes. Here is why.
1. Suikoden I, II, III, IV, V all have different major battle system. No one really complaint about them. This showed that Suikoden fans aren't afraid of changes.
2. Suikoden III introduced something new called the Skill System. Everyone pretty much loved it. This showed that Suikoden fans aren't afraid of changes.
3. Suikoden IV introduced the voice acting. No one really complaint about it either. This too showed that Suikoden fans aren't afraid of changes.
4. Suikoden V introduced the Formation options. Everyone loved it. This showed that Suikoden fans aren't afraid of changes either.
5. I think most people would agree if we say that Suikoden games are not difficult to beat. I, myself, and some people had been constantly wishing for boss fights to be made more difficult/challenging. This showed that there are certain aspects of the game that we do want to be changed/improved. Hence, not afraid of changes.
To me, the biggest mistake you made is assuming that the fans are afraid of changes because they don't like some changes and then you totally ignored the changes that are being embraced by the fans. You're focusing only on the disliked changes to support your point instead of looking at the idea from both sides. That's why you come up with the wrong conclusion. You have to look at things from both sides.
I'll say it once again. Just because there are changes that are disliked, it does NOT mean that we are afraid of changes. It just means that those particular disliked changes sucked, and there are things that we prefer to keep as is instead of being changed around over and over again.
Another mistake you made is by automatically generalizing the few people that you know here in Suikox, plus the few real life friends of yours as the "majority" (of those that you called as being afraid of changes). Like I said before, how many people anyways that we're talking about here? 10? 20? Out of the many thousands of Suikoden fans, you must realize that these 20 people you had been talking to are nothing but probably .01% of the total Suikoden fans. You don't even know what the "majority" think because you haven't even seen the majority.
Last but not least, everyone has different opinions. And I think you should respect those who think differently than you too. If they prefer to keep certain things the way it is, then don't label them as "afraid of changes". I'm happy that you've become an optimistic person. Good job. I'll give you a pat on your back. But that doesn't mean that you should tell everyone else to change too. Different people have different personalities. That's just the way it is in life. For you to constantly say "the majority must adjust to the changes" just shows lack of respect to other people. You'll learn about it when you grow older. ^^
EDIT: Due to RedCydranth's request, I will no longer be posting in this thread. Sorry for the inconvenience, everyone.
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Last edited by Aurelien on Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Yvl
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Tell me of one company who makes games to be hated.
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...The company that made Red Ninja...
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Is Kikito's opinion more important than Yvl's?
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Vice versa, and you know it! :x
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The majority would usually know what the serious flaw of a game is.
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Not necessarily. There could be things they could not quite realize were ruining the games, or making the games better. For example, I for one believe that the greatest part of FF's success was its music and the atmosphere it added to the games. I don't know anyone else who believes this, but that may actually be what causes FF to wither eventually.
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d0ugh
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: fea |
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It's real simple actually, people want stuff to be 'improved' rather than 'revamped'.
and look at Suiko V, what a winner! |
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Eggith Cyrene
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Change is Good, but theres needs to be a set of criteria that makes a suikoden game....well FEEL like suikoden. The rape of the fan's trust by releasing the garbage that was s4 (dont even get me started) is a great example.
Trade was added starting with suiko 2, and that i believe was a welcome addition. However cutting charectors slots to 4, having basically the same rune animation for every rune and not having any charector backstory are just some of the things 4 did wrong. suikoden 5 kept most of the suiko mainstays why adding a few of its own and FEELS like a suiko game. And for that reason among others its a Great game!
If future installments employ elements used by suiko 1-3 and 5 we should be in good shape.
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"Hearing the CRY of VICTORY, He rests in Peace"
Suikoden 5 didnt make me less of a fan; it restored my faith after the abomination that was suikoden 4. |
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Eden
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:32 am Post subject: |
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As always, people in general are afraid of every change that disturbs the usual flow of things, but exactly as always, changes are necessary...
Anyway, I rather speak in my own mind than in some theoretical lesson and I can say that I didn't like the changes within the series at first (and sometimes even forever). I have played the games in the following way: Suikoden II, IV, I, III and V... I just want to express that this has certainly influenced my view on the things.
I didn't like the limited party of four people, because that took a lot of the fun. This change was wrong as one can see in the next change back to the standard six-people-formation. The same is true with the overall exchange from 2D to 3D. This was necessary to keep the visual effects to the opportunities the engine could deliver, but I personally prefered the old 2D with better graphics...
There are so many other points that were already said so that I don't have to, but my opinion is that changes are necessary, although not every change is preferable.
(Phew, I wrote a strange sentences, but I don't have the time to write them better. I am happy as long as you get the meaning of this)
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Malt Hitman
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:19 am Post subject: |
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I can see two good reasons for this. They're the only ones that came off the top of my head so they're not the most complete but I think that they work well enough for the argument.
The first is that anything new is usually being implemented from scratch. That's not to say that they're doing everything from the ground up but they're going off the beaten path and so what they'll end up reusing for the new features will be largely untested. That means that they'll have to spend the time testing it and refining it to make it work right, first and foremost, but also to make it work well. You can have the best idea for a system but completely fail at the implementation. I know, I've done that before. If they don't allocate enough time for the development of the newer features along with all of the other testing that they have to do with the graphics, world, character art, cut-scenes and scripting and AI, then they'll end up with a half done feature or a feature complete system that's really in need of serious polish. Usually that polish comes out in the form of the user interface and then the player suffers because of it.
The second is that it takes time for the feature to be developed from concept to polished product. The more new features you have the longer the development time of the next game. They might be able to minimize the time that it takes but a development team can only do so much each day and there are bottlenecks to overcome. If you don't have the feature A in place and feature B needs that groundwork before it can be tested then you're going to extend the life of the development process. All of that means that it will take longer to get the game on the shelf and to the players. That's a major simplification but if you're working with previous examples, and possibly complete code from a previous version, then you can save time and money on both development and testing. A good chunk of the work was done for you before and you just need to adapt it to the current product.
I think the actual reasons lean more toward the fact that people like what they know and if they get to really like something they don't want to give it up. If people perceive that a system was perfect or as good as it could reasonably get then they would rather see that system copied over and over then for a new system to be implemented that's a clear gamble from their point of view. That might come out to fear of change to some people but others just consider it sticking with what they know. Maybe it's splitting hairs but it's all a matter of perspective. |
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