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Ryusei
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 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: Are The Suikoden Fans Afraid of Change? |
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This is one thing I have noticed on this board and most of Suikoden players I have met. Whenever the topic of Suikoden comes up, it all gets good praises about it being a good game.
But being a good game that it is, some of the fans have ideas on how to make the game more enjoyable. Whenever a fan raises a topic about improvements on the game, many other fans would disagree on the suggestion.
For example, the battle system; many would like to see an improvement on it and have good ideas about it but most of the veteran Suikoden players would dislike the idea saying that "it would ruin Suikoden" or "Suikoden should still be just the way it is." Just look at the way Konami made the battle system in Suikoden III. In my opinion, it is the best out of the entire series. But many fans dislike it just because it didn't stick to what's "traditional." It would really have been a good battle system if Konami was given the chance to refine it in my opinion.
Another example of it is about the way Suikoden IV was done. A lot of new and innovative components of the series was introduced in this installment. The sea world map, the voice overs, the ship, the new combo attacks and many more. But these changes were also hated by most Suikoden fans, including myself.
As a conclusion, I do think most of the Suikoden fans are afraid of change. But I do not understand why. If these changes would bring a new kind of fun and experience, I don't see any reason to object the idea. In my opinion, if Suikoden just keeps on its current features, by and by the series will become repetitive and boring. Bringing changes into the series would give us players a breath of fresh air. But it's just me though.
I would like to hear your opinions about this. |
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Masa
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: |
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III and IV are bad comparisons, moreso the latter.
III had a interesting, but flawed battle system. I didn't have any serious problem with it, save from self-damaging spells. But I rarely used offense magic anyways. I didn't think it was really that bad of a change, though the three story paths are monotonous on replays. I wish there was a New Game+ Mode would require you to only play three chapters for one character.
IV wasn't changes for the better though. While some new stuff was tolerable (like what you mentioned), this was largely overshadowed by four character parties (losing one of Suikoden's unique traits right there), bland characterization, and other annoying technicalities that overshadowed the 'good' new stuff.
Suikoden fan can abide change, just so long as the developor isn't trying to mess with Suikoden to the point it's barely recognizable.
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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The part where you're totally missing the point is that most of us don't mind changes (did you see many of us stop liking Suikoden after the drastic battle system change in Suikoden III? Big fat no is the answer), as long as it's not totally different. There is a reason why we like Suikoden, and continuity is one of the reasons. If the next Suikoden game were to be very different, then the feeling of continuity would be lost. Hence, changes have to be done carefully to not lose that continuity feeling.
Just think about it this way. If you like to eat chicken, then you might enjoy chicken burger, chicken soup, fried chicken, and other chicken dishes. All of them share one common thing, which is chicken being the main ingredients of the meal. Once you take away the chicken out of the meal, then it won't be the same anymore.
Same thing here. If you were to change Suikoden too much, then it won't feel like Suikoden anymore. Imagine a (newer) Final Fantasy game with crap graphics or ugly main characters? It doesn't feel like Final Fantasy, no?
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| Just look at the way Konami made the battle system in Suikoden III. In my opinion, it is the best out of the entire series. But many fans dislike it just because it didn't stick to what's "traditional." |
Not really. Many dislike it because it's giving commands to 3 characters instead of the 6 individually. Many dislike it because it's making Fire spells to be ignored until you have higher Fire Magic skill (to minimize the chance of hurting your allies). It's not because it's not traditional, it's simply because many find it impractical.
To say that most of us are afraid of change is very inaccurate. We have been receiving changes in every single game starting from Suikoden I to Suikoden V (changes including: 3-rune slot introduction, WPN rune slot, buddy system, changes in duel system, magic chant time, ship battle, moving headquarter, 4-man party, HQ decoration, Trinity Sight System, and many more). Yet, we are still here, aren't we?
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| In my opinion, if Suikoden just keeps on its current features, by and by the series will become repetitive and boring. |
Could you please elaborate on what you considered as "current features that would make the game repetitive and boring if they are being kept"? I'm interested to see what you exactly are talking about. Because as far as I'm concerned, Suikoden has always been changing things while keeping the core to not lose its identity as a series.
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Sadness
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I liked Suikoden 3's battle system, but I think the way it was executed made it a bit painful. The system was executed in a way that made battles take way too long. Some combat actions took way too long. That butterfly-like enemy in the Mountain Pass was particularly painful as it slowly attacked you. The free positioning system was good as well, but the buddy system wasn't that great. The buddies didn't really function the way they are supposed to, because some enemies can totally ignore the arrangement (For example, when one is casting a spell, the other should be protecting the spell-caster, but some enemies will just go around the protecting dude and attack the spell caster directly). If I can actually command all 6 members, I'd have greater latitude to plan stuff, and that's good.
So the change was good, but it wasn't presented very well.
Also, movement speed was really too slow, or they made it feel slow by having too much open space on the map. Running through Brass Castle for the 300th time through 5 separate long screens got quite painful, and there was no stallion to save the day. That's got to be one of the main reasons I liked playing as Chris because she can ride a horse in some of the maps.
For me, these ergonomic (ease of playing) issues are really what made Suikoden 3 worse than it was.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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There will always be a sect of fans in any media that are "Old school fans" they'll always say it was better in the past and compare games with nothing but their view points. I've never been one to dislike anything because I'm very easy to impress. I also keep in mind that people worked hard on it and I shouldn't trash it just because I didn't "care for a change."
But I'm glad thier are those people because they make me feel like I'm less of a geek ^^ (I'm still a huge geek though...).
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd like to see innovations so long as they fit the spirit of the series. The Trinity Sight System, for example, was a great idea, since Suikoden plots tend to deal with shades of gray rather than pure good/evil type stories (Well, not ALWAYS, but moreso than other RPG series at least). So having a story with multiple viewpoints makes sense. While III isn't a perfect game by any means, I think it was a good example of how to innovate - though some things are done much differently from the other games, it's still "Suikoden" at its core. |
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Yvl
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Just look at the way Konami made the battle system in Suikoden III. In my opinion, it is the best out of the entire series. |
I sorta agree, but it needed some fixing before being good enough to stand up to the old system.
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| Another example of it is about the way Suikoden IV was done. A lot of new and innovative components of the series was introduced in this installment. The sea world map, the voice overs, the ship, the new combo attacks and many more. But these changes were also hated by most Suikoden fans, including myself. |
The battle system change there was a major mistake, the rest of it I didn't mind. I especially liked the combo attack levels. Really the problem there was that they tried too many new things at once and threw off its rythym.
[quote="masa" I didn't have any serious problem with it, save from self-damaging spells.[/quote]
Should have had characters that could dodge those spells then, shouldn't you have?
| BP wrote: |
| Imagine a (newer) Final Fantasy game with crap graphics or ugly main characters? It doesn't feel like Final Fantasy, no? |
Sounds like Unlimited Saga.
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Could you please elaborate on what you considered as "current features that would make the game repetitive and boring if they are being kept"? I'm interested to see what you exactly are talking about. |
I meant it as I said it, Black Pesmerga. Think of it as a broken record. Hearing the same old repeating tune eventually bores you, doesn't it?
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| Because as far as I'm concerned, Suikoden has always been changing things while keeping the core to not lose its identity as a series. |
Yes, but most of those changes were very minor. The only changes that I found to be (as I can't think of a better word) significant enough are the trinity sight sytem, and the new battle system, both from Suikoden III and the 4 person party from Suikoden IV. I'd like to see Suikoden to have a change within it's core. Maybe they can do it little by little so as not to surprise the fans with sudden changes and hopefully, the fans would be receptive to the changes. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| I meant it as I said it, Black Pesmerga. Think of it as a broken record. Hearing the same old repeating tune eventually bores you, doesn't it? |
No, I meant, what exactly are the features that would bore you? So please elaborate on that bit. Are you talking about 108 SoD concept? Or what? What are the features that you're talking about? You can't just say that it's getting repetitive without explaining on exactly what the things that get repetitive.
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| The only changes that I found to be (as I can't think of a better word) significant enough are the trinity sight sytem, and the new battle system, both from Suikoden III and the 4 person party from Suikoden IV. |
Okay let's ignore Suikoden V for a while (since you made this thread in Suikoden forum, we're not allowed to discuss Suikoden V here) and focus ourselves on the first 4 Suikoden games.
Suikoden I and Suikoden II are very similar. Suikoden II was seen by many as a good improvement from Suikoden I and that's why most people enjoyed it. They like Suikoden I, and they got an even better version of Suikoden I in form of Suikoden II (3-rune slot, WPN rune, better looking HQ, more enjoyable major battle, great mini-games, etc).
Then came Suikoden III. You said (and I paraphrase what you exactly said) that Trinity Sight System and Buddy System are both significant changes. So that means Suikoden III has significant changes from Suikoden I/II.
Then came Suikoden IV. You said (and I paraphras what you exactly said once again) that 4-man party is a significant change. So that means Suikoden IV has once again, significant change from Suikoden I/II/III.
So what's the problem, really? 2 out of 3 non-original games had been having significant changes (using your own words and opinions), and you said that it is getting repetitive? I don't understand. The way you said it's like broken record made it sound as if there is no change whatsoever from Suikoden I to Suikoden IV. Yet, Suikoden III and IV had been different.
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| I'd like to see Suikoden to have a change within it's core. |
If the core is lost, then why bother to call it Suikoden? Why not just buy and play a different game. If you're looking for a different game, then play a different game. You can't really expect Suikoden to be Suikoden if it no longer has the core of what made it Suikoden.
It's like saying that you want to eat different chicken dishes but without chicken as the ingredients. It can't be done since if you take the chicken out of the meal, then it's no longer a chicken dish.
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| Maybe they can do it little by little so as not to surprise the fans with sudden changes and hopefully, the fans would be receptive to the changes. |
So you want Konami to slowly little by little take things away and change things around so that hopefully Suikoden X would be totally different than Suikoden I that the similarity is the same as Final Fantasy I and Final Fantasy X? Maybe by Suikoden X, the game would no longer have 108 SoD and no True Runes either.
If that's what you want, then yes I'm afraid of this so called "change". Not only afraid, but super mega ultra very afraid.
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Kikito
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| So what's the problem, really? 2 out of 3 non-original games had been having significant changes (using your own words and opinions), and you said that it is getting repetitive? I don't understand. The way you said it's like broken record made it sound as if there is no change whatsoever from Suikoden I to Suikoden IV. Yet, Suikoden III and IV had been different. |
Sorry if I may be intruding a bit here, but I believe that the message Ryusei was trying to give is not that there has been a lack of change in the Suikoden series, but that whenever big changes are made, they are almost always ill-received by the existing fan base. And this is clearly seen by the reception Suikoden III and IV have received among the fan base.
Now, from what I've seen and read in different people's posts for the time I've been here, I tend to agree with Ryusei. From what I gather, Suikoden III and IV are considered by a lot of people to be the two lowest points in the series. Maybe since I began to play the Suikoden series with the third game, I can't really say I experienced those changes in the same manner as those who knew of the series since it's beginings have.
This being said, I must also say that I liked Suikoden III's battle and skill systems, and that if they were refined, they'd make for a good system for a future installment of the series. It think that what they did with the skill system in Suikoden V wasn't an improvement on SIII's system, but rather a step down from it. Customization suffered in this game, something that for me made Suikoden III such a great game. |
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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No, I meant, what exactly are the features that would bore you? So please elaborate on that bit. Are you talking about 108 SoD concept? Or what? What are the features that you're talking about? You can't just say that it's getting repetitive without explaining on exactly what the things that get repetitive. |
Let's see now. The battle system is one. Konami has done a good step forward into improvising the system. But then many of the fans whined and ranted about it being very ugly. So Konami reverts back to its previous boring battle system. They were never given the chance to improve on Suikoden III's battle system. It would have been a really good system if given the chance to be refined.
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| So what's the problem, really? 2 out of 3 non-original games had been having significant changes (using your own words and opinions), and you said that it is getting repetitive? I don't understand. The way you said it's like broken record made it sound as if there is no change whatsoever from Suikoden I to Suikoden IV. Yet, Suikoden III and IV had been different. |
The problem is not what changes have been made, BP, but how the fans react to the changes. You see, whenever Konami makes a significant change in the series, many of its fans (and most of the veterans I know of) dislike the changes and make rants about the game. Konami then reverts back to its older features and disregard the changes they have made to please the fans.
Now, I know their main job is to please the fans. I'm not going to make an argument about that. But what Konami should have done is to keep the changes, improve it and keep in mind how the fans reacted to the changes. Instead of reverting back, they should expound the changes based on what they heard from the fans. Take out what the fans disliked about their changes and add what the fans suggested to make the changes better. I'm sure I've heard a lot of suggestions just here in SuikoX.
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| It's like saying that you want to eat different chicken dishes but without chicken as the ingredients. It can't be done since if you take the chicken out of the meal, then it's no longer a chicken dish. |
I'm sorry. I confused myself with finding terms for the right statement. I should not have said "core," but what surrounds the core. You might not have gotten what I really should have meant.
Anyway, that's not what I meant. The main core should be kept. It's what makes Suikoden a Suikoden. The 108 Stars of Destiny, the Headquarters, the political storyline should be all kept. It is impossible to change them without changing the title from "Suikoden." It's like changing Final Fantasy into a racing game.
So, what I meant, using your own analogy, is that I want to eat chicken dishes but having the dishes cooked differently. Keep the chicken as its main ingredient but add other ingredients into the dish and you basically have another style of cooking chicken.
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| So you want Konami to slowly little by little take things away and change things around so that hopefully Suikoden X would be totally different than Suikoden I that the similarity is the same as Final Fantasy I and Final Fantasy X? Maybe by Suikoden X, the game would no longer have 108 SoD and no True Runes either. |
That's what I said but that's what I meant. I meant to add things little by little and not take things away little by little. That is called improvising. There's a difference between improvising and removing.
As I said earlier, keep what makes Suikoden a Suikoden but add things to improve the game.
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| If that's what you want, then yes I'm afraid of this so called "change". Not only afraid, but super mega ultra very afraid. |
I too, am afraid if that happens. It's basically changing Suikoden into another game. I never meant to change Suikoden, but to change the things outside the series' main core.
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Sorry if I may be intruding a bit here, but I believe that the message Ryusei was trying to give is not that there has been a lack of change in the Suikoden series, but that whenever big changes are made, they are almost always ill-received by the existing fan base. And this is clearly seen by the reception Suikoden III and IV have received among the fan base. |
Exactly my point. Thanks for bringing that up, Kikito. |
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Aurelien
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Sorry if I may be intruding a bit here, but I believe that the message Ryusei was trying to give is not that there has been a lack of change in the Suikoden series, but that whenever big changes are made, they are almost always ill-received by the existing fan base |
I do apologize if I misunderstood the message, but I took it the wrong way because of innocent mistake in the way Ryusei made his point. When he said In my opinion, if Suikoden just keeps on its current features, by and by the series will become repetitive and boring. it implied that Suikoden seried had been keeping the current features (which means no change) and therefore would be repetitive and boring in the future. This is something that I disagree very much because I felt that Suikoden games have been constantly changing enough.
If Ryusei indeed meant the reception by the players rather than implying that Konami hadn't made any changes, then point taken. However, I've explained the reasons why.
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| From what I gather, Suikoden III and IV are considered by a lot of people to be the two lowest points in the series. |
One thing to notice here. I don't believe that most of us put Suikoden II and IV to be the lowest two because of the changes, but because of them not satisfied with how the changes were being implemented.
Take Suikoden III for example. Most people complained about two major things. Buddy System and Trinity Sight System. Not because they're bad in concept, but because they were poorly implemented.
Buddy System restrict the players to command 3 pairs instead of 6 individuals. One of the reasons of what made Suikoden different than most other RPG is the ability to have 6-man party instead of the more common 3 or 4. Buddy System took away the Suikoden-only aspect and turned the game into more like other RPGs.
Trinity Sight System was more mixed in a sense that some loved it, some didn't. And again, it was more because of not careful implementation. The three point of views could be too repetitive as they tend to overlap with one another and you'd end up feeling like you back-tracked instead of moving forward. The concept of "seeing from other point of view" was something that the fans actually wanted (many Suikoden II fans would love to see the war from Jowy's point of view), but again, the implementation was not like what most wanted it to be. Coupled with the ridiculously short period of Chapter 4-5 compared to Chapter 1-3, it only adds more fuel to the people that don't like Suikoden III.
Despite all that, one thing that we see is that there are still some fans that like Trinity Sight System and Buddy System. However, I have yet to see one that hate Skill System. Skill System was, at that time, something new. To me, it was a big change as it would allow much more customization into the character than ever. Yet, it was very well received by the fans. Something that is being embraced and loved. This showed that Suikoden fans can accept changes as long as it's something that appeals to them.
That point is further supported by a thing called the major battle that was completely ignored by Ryusei. Major battle from Suikoden I to Suikoden IV had always been totally different from one another. Yet, there was no hatred whatsoever about them. This once again showed that Suikoden fans can accept changes. Just like any other game fans (and including yourself), we only accept changes that we like. If it's something that we don't like, then we don't accept the changes well. As simple as that.
So once again, the point is not whether there is a change or not. But whether the implementation of the change is good or not. That's why I disagree very much if Suikoden fans are said to be afraid of changes. We are not afraid, we are just being very selective and hard to satisfy.
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| Let's see now. The battle system is one. |
That's it? Just the battle system? Anything else? Because the way you made your first post made it sound like there are a whole lot of things rather than just the battle system. Personally, I wouldn't be bored by the series even if it used the same battle system for all the games. Just like if I listen to 20 songs and they all have guitars in it. It's not going to bore me because they're still different songs.
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| Konami has done a good step forward into improvising the system. But then many of the fans whined and ranted about it being very ugly. So Konami reverts back to its previous boring battle system. They were never given the chance to improve on Suikoden III's battle system. It would have been a really good system if given the chance to be refined. |
Do you really think that Konami reverts back to its previous boring battle system because of the fans? Seriously? I disagree very much. If they were thinking about the fans like that, I'm 100% sure that they wouldn't have done the 4-man party in Suikoden IV (this is far more unpopular move compared to Buddy System).
And I don't really understand what's so great about Buddy System. It's still Turn-Based with the difference being you control 3 pairs instead of 6 individuals, and the characters got to move around a bit like in Grandia but positioning doesn't really matter other than making your party members got hit accidentally by Fire spells or the enemies being too far to reach by your characters. What's so special? I know it's "different", but would it make the game much better if we keep Buddy System? Wouldn't that in the end makes it "repetitive" as well if we use that system from Suikoden III to Suikoden X? Would you say that Buddy System is boring if that's the case?
To me, it just comes down to different people liking different things. Those who got what they like showed no complaints. But those who didn't would complain. That's just the nature of things.
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| But what Konami should have done is to keep the changes, improve it and keep in mind how the fans reacted to the changes. Instead of reverting back, they should expound the changes based on what they heard from the fans. Take out what the fans disliked about their changes and add what the fans suggested to make the changes better. I'm sure I've heard a lot of suggestions just here in SuikoX. |
I 100% mean no offense whatsoever to you at all, but you are being very naive here. I'm just pulling out random number from my brain and say that for example Suikoden III sold for around 100,000 copies that were played by 100,000 different players/fans. So what do you do? Every single one of them has different ideas, differents things that they want changed/improved. How are you going to satisfy them? Whose opinion is it that you're going to follow? Is your opinion more important than mine? Is my opinion more important than Kikito's? Is Kikito's opinion more important than Yvl's? Not really. You can't, and I repeat, you can't satisfy everyone. And as harsh as this may sound, it just happens that you just don't get what you wanted and now complaining about it.
If we turn the situation around, you'd be smiling happy that you got what you wanted while others are complaining about not getting what they wanted. Same song different singers. The only change is that you're happy while the other isn't instead of the other being happy and you aren't. Swapping happy with unhappy fans wouldn't do much good for Konami, would it?
I'm not sure if things changed these days, but I remember at least a good 3-4 years ago, VX was told by someone in Konami that they weren't allowed to be in contact with fans and take their ideas on board (legal matters could be problematic if a fan suggested something and then used by Konami). So while you can say that there are lots of suggestions here in Suikox, Konami wouldn't be reading them to protect their own property. What they can do is simply to take things in general as a reaction of the product and then take it from there by themselves.
So it's not as easy as you might think, Ryusei.
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Ryusei
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| That's it? Just the battle system? Anything else? Because the way you made your first post made it sound like there are a whole lot of things rather than just the battle system. Personally, I wouldn't be bored by the series even if it used the same battle system for all the games. Just like if I listen to 20 songs and they all have guitars in it. It's not going to bore me because they're still different songs. |
Nope, it's not the only one. As I said in my earlier posts, many of the good suggestions I have heard have not been received very well. Take for example that a friend of mine suggested on how the Suikoden IV's flawed system could be further refined upon. He discussed on how the battle system, the world exploration, the narrative style, etc. But it was given more negative comments than possitive ones.
My main point exactly is when a topic about big changes to Suikoden comes up, they are usually turned down by most of the fans. A suggestion talking about how this system and that system could be further refined on is usually being given a cold reception by the fanbase. Hence, I say the Suikoden fans can accept change but it is how they accept these changes that I am talking about.
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| Do you really think that Konami reverts back to its previous boring battle system because of the fans? Seriously? I disagree very much. If they were thinking about the fans like that, I'm 100% sure that they wouldn't have done the 4-man party in Suikoden IV (this is far more unpopular move compared to Buddy System). |
Yes I do. It wasn't very well liked by the fans, especially because of the buddy system. Konami then tries to revert back the the old system and added a new feature of a 4 man party in hopes of pleasing the fans. But it still wasn't received very well so they had to revert back to the old Suikoden I and Suikoden II battle system, which made the fans happy. I wouldn't be surprised if Suikoden VI and Suikoden VII are going to have the same battle system as Suikoden I and II because that is what "makes the fans happy."
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| And I don't really understand what's so great about Buddy System. It's still Turn-Based with the difference being you control 3 pairs instead of 6 individuals, and the characters got to move around a bit like in Grandia but positioning doesn't really matter other than making your party members got hit accidentally by Fire spells or the enemies being too far to reach by your characters. What's so special? I know it's "different", but would it make the game much better if we keep Buddy System? Wouldn't that in the end makes it "repetitive" as well if we use that system from Suikoden III to Suikoden X? Would you say that Buddy System is boring if that's the case? |
And this, BP, is where the refining of the system should start. The Buddy System was main flaw of Suikoden III's battle system. As I said earlier, Konami should have refined it rather than going back to its old system. Take out what's being disliked and add in what the fans wanted. That should have solved the problem right then and there.
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| To me, it just comes down to different people liking different things. Those who got what they like showed no complaints. But those who didn't would complain. That's just the nature of things. |
And it seems to me that there are more who complain than praise the changes. Even when those who complain give out suggestions on how to improve the current flaws, these suggestions are oftenly given negative comments like: "if it ain't broken, then don't fix it" or "then it wouldn't be Suikoden if that's the case." I have heard more fans disliking changes and turing down suggestions than fans who are hopeful to the changes hence I think many of the Suikoden fans are afraid of changes.
But then again as you said, those who got what they wanted just kept themselves quiet. So, I really can't say all of them are afraid of changes.
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| I 100% mean no offense whatsoever to you at all, but you are being very naive here. |
No offense taken. It's just another conversation for me, which I have to defend my opinion.
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| I'm just pulling out random number from my brain and say that for example Suikoden III sold for around 100,000 copies that were played by 100,000 different players/fans. So what do you do? Every single one of them has different ideas, differents things that they want changed/improved. How are you going to satisfy them? Whose opinion is it that you're going to follow? |
I say Konami take the opinion of the majority. Oftentimes (if not all of the time), the obvious flaws are seen by the fans. Obvious flaws such as the Buddy System in Suikoden III, the weak story of Suikoden IV, the removal of the Skill System of Suikoden III, the weak latter parts of the Trinity Sight System, and others. These are what are the big changes I was talking about and have big impacts in the game. These are what should be given priority when making changes to a game. The small things, such the technichal stuff, should be given less priority.
The majority of the fanbase know what should be improved upon. Konami should listen to the majority.
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| Is your opinion more important than mine? Is my opinion more important than Kikito's? Is Kikito's opinion more important than Yvl's? Not really. You can't, and I repeat, you can't satisfy everyone. And as harsh as this may sound, it just happens that you just don't get what you wanted and now complaining about it. |
As I said above, the opinion of the majority should be taken, not individual opinions. They know what should be changed as the serious flaws are recognized by the majority of the fans. Those are the major stuff that have big impacts on the game. The minor stuff is all up to personal prefference. They can all love it and hate it as they please. I know there's no pleasing everybody. |
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Aurelien
20.01.08
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Post Count: 7736
Location: Jowston Hill
1567728 Potch
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Take for example that a friend of mine suggested on how the Suikoden IV's flawed system could be further refined upon. He discussed on how the battle system, the world exploration, the narrative style, etc. But it was given more negative comments than possitive ones. |
Where is this suggestion if I may ask? I'd like to have a read for myself if I can. It's kind of hard to properly comment without me knowing exactly what the suggestion was.
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| Hence, I say the Suikoden fans can accept change but it is how they accept these changes that I am talking about. |
How they accept these changes? You mean, those who like the changes would accept with no complaints, while those who don't would complain? Isn't it like that for every other games as well?
I'll use Final Fantasy IX as an example of a truly love-hate game. Those who like the more human-like approach of Final Fantasy VIII hated Final Fantasy IX. Does that mean that Final Fantasy fans are also afraid of changes? Like I said before, it's not the changes themselves, it's how well the changes were executed. And because everyone has different preference, it's normal that there are some that don't like the idea while others like.
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| Yes I do. It wasn't very well liked by the fans, especially because of the buddy system. Konami then tries to revert back the the old system and added a new feature of a 4 man party in hopes of pleasing the fans. |
I don't think that made sense. You think Konami changed Buddy System into 4-man party to please the fans? You've got to be kidding me. I'm sorry, I can never see making it a 4-man party as a way to please the fans. It's illogical. If Konami thought that the fans wanted things back as they were used to be (in Suikoden I and II), it wouldn't make sense at all to change into 4-man party instead of 6-man party.
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| And this, BP, is where the refining of the system should start. The Buddy System was main flaw of Suikoden III's battle system. As I said earlier, Konami should have refined it rather than going back to its old system. Take out what's being disliked and add in what the fans wanted. That should have solved the problem right then and there. |
If only things are that simple, my friend. Unfortunately, it's much more complicated than that.
Okay let's move past that, and say that hypothetically, the Buddy System has been transformed into a battle system that you think is the perfect one to your liking and it's used for Suikoden VI. Do you want that system to be changed for Suikoden VII? Please answer this question because I'm really interested in knowing what you think regarding this.
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| And it seems to me that there are more who complain than praise the changes. |
I have to disagree here. I am quite positive that we, the non-Japanese fans, are not even the majority of the Suikoden fans in the world. I'm quite sure that the Japanese fans would outnumber us. And as far as I'm concerned, it's very misleading for you to generalize the "Suikoden fans" by using Suikox (or non-Japanese Suikoden community) as the basis. Suikox only have almost 2,000 members and I'm sure that probably only 100-200 or so are really active. 100-200 out of the many thousands of fans are not equal to the majority by any means. So I disagree if you say that by using inaccurate base. To me, we are actually the minority.
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| Even when those who complain give out suggestions on how to improve the current flaws, these suggestions are oftenly given negative comments like: "if it ain't broken, then don't fix it" or "then it wouldn't be Suikoden if that's the case." |
To me personally, it really depends on the suggestions itself. I used the "it doesn't feel like Suikoden" comment mainly as a response to those that suggest too radical changes (like your own suggestion of using "visible monsters" system) which, in my opinion, could change too much. But if the changes suggested are reasonable and something that I agree with, then I'd have no problem supporting the idea.
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| The majority of the fanbase know what should be improved upon. Konami should listen to the majority. |
I'm sorry, but wasn't your initial point is to say that (the majority of) Suikoden fans are afraid of change? Wouldn't that mean that Konami should avoid making changes because (majority of) Suikoden fans are afraid of changes? So basically Konami did listen to the majority and it just happened that the majority are afraid of changes, and then Konami chose to not make any changes because that's what the majority wanted. So what's the problem? I'm totally confused with your point.
Isn't "keeping the fans happy" a part of listening to the majority? Does that mean that you support Konami making no changes if that's what the majority wanted?
You can't get it both ways, man. You can't say that Konami should listen to the majority when saying that the majority are afraid of changes, and then wanting Konami to actually change things around because that's what you wanted. You are not the majority. (I am not the majority either, I just happen to be easy to please and therefore happy with the product so far .. I personally quite enjoyed Suikoden IV, the game that many rated as horrible)
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| As I said above, the opinion of the majority should be taken, not individual opinions. They know what should be changed as the serious flaws are recognized by the majority of the fans. Those are the major stuff that have big impacts on the game. The minor stuff is all up to personal prefference. They can all love it and hate it as they please. I know there's no pleasing everybody. |
And as I mentioned just now, you are not the majority. To go even further, what's considered as "major stuff that have big impacts on the game" also varies from player to player. Some might solely focus on the storyline, some might like the characters, some might like the mini-games, some might focus on the gameplay element, etc.
You can't just say "Konami should fix the battle system because it's something major and it's boring" because not everyone thinks that way. As sad as this might sound, your opinion falls into the category of "individual opinion". Sadly, you said it yourself that individual opinion should not be taken. I think Konami got you there. You're an individual, and your opinion got ignored.
>.<;
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~City-States of Jowston and Tinto Republic~
06.06.2004 - 20.01.2008
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Ryusei
Kotetsu
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Post Count: 2019
114213 Potch
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Where is this suggestion if I may ask? I'd like to have a read for myself if I can. It's kind of hard to properly comment without me knowing exactly what the suggestion was. |
It was a conversation between my friends and I about Suikoden many months ago. I'm sorry I can't provide you with it, I have a poor memory. What I posted just a while ago is all I can remember about it.
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| How they accept these changes? You mean, those who like the changes would accept with no complaints, while those who don't would complain? Isn't it like that for every other games as well? |
No, I mean accepting the changes including their flaws with optimism. The people should think of suggestions of ways on how to improve these flaws and hopefully, Konami would do their part in listening to the fans.
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| I don't think that made sense. You think Konami changed Buddy System into 4-man party to please the fans? You've got to be kidding me. I'm sorry, I can never see making it a 4-man party as a way to please the fans. It's illogical. If Konami thought that the fans wanted things back as they were used to be (in Suikoden I and II), it wouldn't make sense at all to change into 4-man party instead of 6-man party. |
And that was one big mistake they have done. As I have said, they shouldn't have reverted back. They should have developed Suikoden III's system.
They were intending to please the fans, but they utterly failed. They thought they could please the fans by reverting back to the old system, but they didn't. As I said, their main job is to please the fans. Would you think they did that to be hated? I don't think so. Tell me of one company who makes games to be hated.
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| Do you want that system to be changed for Suikoden VII? Please answer this question because I'm really interested in knowing what you think regarding this. |
Do I want that to be changed you ask? I'm fine with, it if it fits perfectly. But if Konami decides to change it, they can do so as they please. I will live through with it, and will enjoy it as much as I can.
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| I have to disagree here. I am quite positive that we, the non-Japanese fans, are not even the majority of the Suikoden fans in the world. I'm quite sure that the Japanese fans would outnumber us. And as far as I'm concerned, it's very misleading for you to generalize the "Suikoden fans" by using Suikox (or non-Japanese Suikoden community) as the basis. Suikox only have almost 2,000 members and I'm sure that probably only 100-200 or so are really active. 100-200 out of the many thousands of fans are not equal to the majority by any means. So I disagree if you say that by using inaccurate base. To me, we are actually the minority. |
Let me make one thing clear. I am not solely using the people at SuikoX as examples. I am also talking about the people I have met in real life make comments and suggestions about Suikoden. And I know a lot of them. A lot more than here in SuikoX. I am also non-Japanese.
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| I'm sorry, but wasn't your initial point is to say that (the majority of) Suikoden fans are afraid of change? Wouldn't that mean that Konami should avoid making changes because (majority of) Suikoden fans are afraid of changes? So basically Konami did listen to the majority and it just happened that the majority are afraid of changes, and then Konami chose to not make any changes because that's what the majority wanted. So what's the problem? I'm totally confused with your point. |
I have been repeating my point over and over. It is about the reception of the fans about the possible changes Konami makes to Suikoden.
I am not at all suggesting Konami to stop making changes because of it, but I am just trying to encourage that the fans should be more receptive to the changes. It should not be the changes Konami make that should adjust to the fans but the fans should adjust to the changes.
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| Isn't "keeping the fans happy" a part of listening to the majority? Does that mean that you support Konami making no changes if that's what the majority wanted? |
No, I won't support Konami if it ever goes that way. That is why I want the players to be the ones to adapt to the changes. If the majority would be more receptive to the changes made, then their suggestions would be for the improvement of the flaws made by the previous installments. That should be when Konami should "listen" to the fans.
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| You can't get it both ways, man. You can't say that Konami should listen to the majority when saying that the majority are afraid of changes, and then wanting Konami to actually change things around because that's what you wanted. You are not the majority. (I am not the majority either, I just happen to be easy to please and therefore happy with the product so far .. I personally quite enjoyed Suikoden IV, the game that many rated as horrible) |
They can, if the majority of the fans become more receptive than afraid of the changes. The changes will continue throughout the series, and there will be flaws going with the changes. If the majority of the fans would only become more receptive to the changes and contribute suggestions which would benefit the series, then it's possible.
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| And as I mentioned just now, you are not the majority. To go even further, what's considered as "major stuff that have big impacts on the game" also varies from player to player. Some might solely focus on the storyline, some might like the characters, some might like the mini-games, some might focus on the gameplay element, etc. |
Yes, I am not the majority. But what makes up the majority? Isn't it the individuals who make up the majority?
I said the majority knows what should be changed, and I'm still sticking to what I said. Like for example, the Buddy System was widely disliked by the majority, so it is something which should be changed. Another one is the removal of the skill system. Most of the fans disliked it when it was removed, so it should be changed: it should be brought back. Another one is the 4-man party of Suikoden IV. It was disliked it so it should be changed back to six. The majority would usually know what the serious flaw of a game is.
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You can't just say "Konami should fix the battle system because it's something major and it's boring" because not everyone thinks that way. As sad as this might sound, your opinion falls into the category of "individual opinion". Sadly, you said it yourself that individual opinion should not be taken. I think Konami got you there. You're an individual, and your opinion got ignored.
>.<; |
Yes, not everyone thinks that way because they would rather stick with "what's tradition". As I said, the majority should be more receptive to the changes and make constructive comments to improve the suggestions made by some of the fans. |
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