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Rune of Punishment's usefulness
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Rune of Punishment's usefulness Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
The True Fire Rune's level 1 spell does 400 damage to all enemies compared to the Rune of Punishment's Eternal Ordeal at 300 damage on one enemy. It could definitely match (if not pass) the Rune of Punishment's level 1 spell damage potential.

Two points to remember:
1. True Fire Rune could also end up killing your allies if not careful. Not to mention that none of the 3 main characters have great affinity with Fire Magic anyways.
2. You got True Fire Rune very late in the game (Chapter 4?) compared to Rune of Punishment that you got early in the game. That's why I said Etenal Ordeal is very useful considering that 300 damage early in the game is very strong.

Quote:
Also, was the Rune of Punishment any use to war battles? No. Lazlo didn't use it in war battles. Not even once. That makes the True Fire Rune a lot more useful compared to it.

Two points to remember again:
1. Being able to use True Fire Rune in the last 10% of the game for the few major battles doesn't make it a lot more useful than only using Rune of Punishment for normal battles for 90% of the game.
2. Rune of Punishment is not usable in major battles simply because of Suikoden IV's major battle system being different than Suikoden III's (which is pretty much a glorified normal battle). We didn't get to use Souleater Rune in Suikoden I major battle, did we? We didn't even any usable True Rune for major battle in Suikoden II, did we? (and no, Bright Shield Rune is not a True Rune, and True Wind Rune was not usable by the player in Suikoden II, same for Night Rune and Blue Moon Rune).

Quote:
I didn't say it became stronger because of the graphics, but it just LOOKS stronger.

And I never said that you said all that. I simply said what does graphics have to do with anything? So True Fire Rune graphics made it look as if it's a strong spell. So what? No difference, really.

Quote:
Compared to the Rune of Punishment's spell animations, the True Fire Rune's spell animations LOOKS like the spells are a hell lot more stronger than the Rune of Punishment's spells.

And I already explained it to you why Suikoden IV's rune animations are simple (not just Rune of Punishment, but throughout the whole game for every single rune). That's also why we got 4-man party instead of 6-man party. The battle was made to be quick. Obviously making pretty graphics for rune spells would prolong the battle and goes against the idea.

Quote:
It is the only true rune in Suikoden IV connected with the main story.

And that is a bad thing because ... ? Suikoden I main story only revolved around Souleater Rune. Suikoden II main story only revolved around non True Runes (Bright Shield and Black Sword) though Beast Rune somewhat got connected very loosely.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Two points to remember:
1. True Fire Rune could also end up killing your allies if not careful. Not to mention that none of the 3 main characters have great affinity with Fire Magic anyways.
2. You got True Fire Rune very late in the game (Chapter 4?) compared to Rune of Punishment that you got early in the game. That's why I said Etenal Ordeal is very useful considering that 300 damage early in the game is very strong.

1. You could also end up killing Lazlo with the Rune of Punishment. The True Fire Rune rarely even damages your party. They usually dodge it. That's what happened in my playthroughs anyway.
2. Yeah, it was a bit useful at the beginning alright. But in the later parts of the game, it becomes very crappy.

Quote:
Two points to remember again:
1. Being able to use True Fire Rune in the last 10% of the game for the few major battles doesn't make it a lot more useful than only using Rune of Punishment for normal battles for 90% of the game.
2. Rune of Punishment is not usable in major battles simply because of Suikoden IV's major battle system being different than Suikoden III's (which is pretty much a glorified normal battle). We didn't get to use Souleater Rune in Suikoden I major battle, did we? We didn't even any usable True Rune for major battle in Suikoden II, did we? (and no, Bright Shield Rune is not a True Rune, and True Wind Rune was not usable by the player in Suikoden II, same for Night Rune and Blue Moon Rune).

1. Would you be able to win the war battles with no difficulty in the last 10% of the game without the True Fire Rune then? The enemies were hard. It was still useful, regardless of the few times you used it.
2. And that makes The True Fire Rune useful in war battles.


Quote:
And I already explained it to you why Suikoden IV's rune animations are simple (not just Rune of Punishment, but throughout the whole game for every single rune). That's also why we got 4-man party instead of 6-man party. The battle was made to be quick. Obviously making pretty graphics for rune spells would prolong the battle and goes against the idea.

I know, I know. There's no need to repeat that every single time. My point was that because of the superior rune animations in Suikoden III, they make all the other runes (not just the Rune of Punishment) look ugly and weak in Suikoden IV. I wasn't talking about the reason why the rune graphics were bad. I just said that the rune spells look bad, and therefore make the spells look weak.

Quote:
And that is a bad thing because ... ?

Because it was crap. If they had other true runes which weren't, then Suikoden IV would have been better.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
2. Yeah, it was a bit useful at the beginning alright. But in the later parts of the game, it becomes very crappy.

Well at the later parts of the game, simply don't use level 1 spells. Surely you don't use level 1 of True Fire Rune anyways when you got it, right? The level 4 spell fo Rune of Punishment is useful, 500 damage to all enemies, and healing 500 HP to allies.

Quote:
1. Would you be able to win the war battles with no difficulty in the last 10% of the game without the True Fire Rune then? The enemies were hard. It was still useful, regardless of the few times you used it.
2. And that makes The True Fire Rune useful in war battles.

1. To be honest, I didn't even bother using True Fire Rune at all in Suikoden III other than testing it once just to see how the spell animation looks like. So yeah, I did win the war battles (and also all normal battles) without using True Fire Rune.
2. However, not able to be used for major battle doesn't make Rune of Punishment useless as a whole (which is the point you're trying to make because you hate Suikoden IV and the point that I'm arguing against).

Quote:
Because it was crap. If they had other true runes which weren't, then Suikoden IV would have been better.

Well that's just your own personal preference that Rune of Punishment is crap. There is no evidence whatsoever to say that it's crap from objective point of view. I've shown that the reasons you've given before could be applied to other True Runes in the other games. But yet, you only consider Rune of Punishment as the crap one while not giving the same treatment to the others that did the same.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Well at the later parts of the game, simply don't use level 1 spells. Surely you don't use level 1 of True Fire Rune anyways when you got it, right? The level 4 spell fo Rune of Punishment is useful, 500 damage to all enemies, and healing 500 HP to allies.

I never used Everlasting Mercy, simply because the numbers weren't high enough for a level 4 spell. If I wanted to damage all enemies, I would use a rage rune or a mother earth rune. If I want to heal, I'll use a flowing rune. I'd get higher numbers with those than using the Rune of Punishment. I never found the Rune of Punishment to be really useful at all.

Quote:
2. However, not able to be used for major battle doesn't make Rune of Punishment useless as a whole (which is the point you're trying to make because you hate Suikoden IV and the point that I'm arguing against).

That's how I view the Rune of Punishment anyway. I really never found it to be useful at anything. Just like I said, I hate Suikoden IV with a passion.

Quote:
Well that's just your own personal preference that Rune of Punishment is crap. There is no evidence whatsoever to say that it's crap from objective point of view. I've shown that the reasons you've given before could be applied to other True Runes in the other games. But yet, you only consider Rune of Punishment as the crap one while not giving the same treatment to the others that did the same.


That's because the other True runes have already proven their worth, in my point of view. Aside from the Rune of Punishment, I found all the other true runes useful, gameplay-wise and story-wise. But I may be biased against it because of my hatred in Suikoden IV.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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I never used Everlasting Mercy, simply because the numbers weren't high enough for a level 4 spell. If I wanted to damage all enemies, I would use a rage rune or a mother earth rune. If I want to heal, I'll use a flowing rune. I'd get higher numbers with those than using the Rune of Punishment. I never found the Rune of Punishment to be really useful at all.

The number has to be lower than Rage/MotherEarth/Flowing because it is one single rune doing both damage and heal rather than two separate runes one doing damage and one doing heal. If you compare Everlasting Mercy x2 with Rage+Flowing then Rune of Punishment would come out on top. Also consider that Rune of Punishment's attack is non-elemental, meaning that there is no weaknesess to the attack while elemental damage can be resisted (Earthquake is even doing no damage for flying foes). If you want to make comparison, compare it properly and don't make it one-sided.

Quote:
That's how I view the Rune of Punishment anyway. I really never found it to be useful at anything.

Too bad hating the game makes you hating the rune that much.

Quote:
But I may be biased against it because of my hatred in Suikoden IV.

Obviously this is the case since you said that you like Suikoden Tactics more than Suikoden IV simply because of Rune of Punishment in Tactics is strong for gameplay purpose. But yeah, up to you, I guess. I still don't think it's fair to say Rune of Punishment is crap just because you hate Suikoden IV. But I'm not going to be able to change that unless you're willing to give it a chance.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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The number has to be lower than Rage/MotherEarth/Flowing because it is one single rune doing both damage and heal rather than two separate runes one doing damage and one doing heal. If you compare Everlasting Mercy x2 with Rage+Flowing then Rune of Punishment would come out on top. Also consider that Rune of Punishment's attack is non-elemental, meaning that there is no weaknesess to the attack while elemental damage can be resisted (Earthquake is even doing no damage for flying foes). If you want to make comparison, compare it properly and don't make it one-sided.

I figured. But using Everlasting Mercy twice just to match the numbers of the rage rune+flowing rune combo would just end up depleting MP quickly. I was a little worried if the boss is still alive and I have no MP left. Also, I never bothered with elements. They weren't major factors in battles anyway. So long as the enemy takes damage higher than 500, I don't care. I keep on neglecting elements throughout the game.

And I don't think I would ever compare them properly. Like I said, I am biased.

Quote:
But I'm not going to be able to change that unless you're willing to give it a chance.

I already gave it a chance. I replayed Suikoden IV the most times out of the entire series in hopes of being able to appreciate the game. I ended up hating it even more.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In any case, the absolute value of Everlasting Mercy's healing and damaged is greater then that of Rage and Flowing Combo.

1 lvl 4 point for Flowing
+
1 lvl 4 point for Rage

does less healing and damage then

2 lvl 4 point for Everlasting Mercy

Of course, the problem is that Everlasting Mercy can only be casted by one person (Lazlo) to each that potential. But the Rage and Flowing Combo can do that in one turn by anyone with the rune.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The RoP was useful, but not early as useful as past true runes. I would say its usefullness is about equal to a cyclone rune and I will compare each level's spells to one another. Level 1: RoP-300 damage, 30 to self. Cyclone - Heal 300 damage and status. I'd give this to the RoP, but the Cyclone rune has its usefullness. Level 2: RoP- 150 to all enemies, 50 to self, Cyclone- 300 damege to all enemies. Clearly, this goes to the cyclone rune. Level 3: RoP- Instant death to one foe, 10% death against self. Cyclone: 300 damage to one foe, 25% chance of instant death. It's close, but I would give it to the cyclone rune. The direct damage is better against bosses and you don't have to worry about the possibility of dieing from it (which i think is much higher than 10% because everytime I have ever used this spell, the enemy lived and I died, it is possilb that I am just very unlucky though). ALso, instant deaths are noramlly only useful for when you fight one big normal enemy, but these can normally be taken out with physical attacks, making an instant death spell somewhat pointless, when one ould kill with phyiscal attacks or direct damage. Level 4: RoP- 500 damage to foes, heal allies allies for 500. Cyclone - 300 damge to foes, hell party for 500. This si close, but I give tit to cyclone again. The worst thing about the RoP's spell is that it doesn't cure Lazlo, meaning that to cure your whole party, you'll need to use another character, vs the ability to just use one spell to cure them all. The damage is higher with the RoP, but I don't think the 200 more is useful enough to counteract the second healer you'll need to use to heal Lazlo, because that second person could cast many spells that would do more than this 200 damage.

Looking at this, I don't see the RoP as being anything but normal in usefullness, which is dissapointing when compared to other true runes.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Timbo wrote:
The RoP was useful, but not early as useful as past true runes. I would say its usefullness is about equal to a cyclone rune and I will compare each level's spells to one another. Level 1: RoP-300 damage, 30 to self. Cyclone - Heal 300 damage and status. I'd give this to the RoP, but the Cyclone rune has its usefullness. Level 2: RoP- 150 to all enemies, 50 to self, Cyclone- 300 damege to all enemies. Clearly, this goes to the cyclone rune. Level 3: RoP- Instant death to one foe, 10% death against self. Cyclone: 300 damage to one foe, 25% chance of instant death. It's close, but I would give it to the cyclone rune. The direct damage is better against bosses and you don't have to worry about the possibility of dieing from it (which i think is much higher than 10% because everytime I have ever used this spell, the enemy lived and I died, it is possilb that I am just very unlucky though). ALso, instant deaths are noramlly only useful for when you fight one big normal enemy, but these can normally be taken out with physical attacks, making an instant death spell somewhat pointless, when one ould kill with phyiscal attacks or direct damage. Level 4: RoP- 500 damage to foes, heal allies allies for 500. Cyclone - 300 damge to foes, hell party for 500. This si close, but I give tit to cyclone again. The worst thing about the RoP's spell is that it doesn't cure Lazlo, meaning that to cure your whole party, you'll need to use another character, vs the ability to just use one spell to cure them all. The damage is higher with the RoP, but I don't think the 200 more is useful enough to counteract the second healer you'll need to use to heal Lazlo, because that second person could cast many spells that would do more than this 200 damage.

Looking at this, I don't see the RoP as being anything but normal in usefullness, which is dissapointing when compared to other true runes.

My point exactly. That is why I consider the Rune of Punishment as the most useless true rune. The option that I can use Everlasting Mercy twice just to match the numbers of the rage rune + flowing rune combo is just a waste of MP in my part. Consider that you have take 2 of Lazlo's level 4 MP's for using Everlasting Mercy twice compared to only using 2 MP (not necessarily level 4 MP and not on Lazlo alone) for the rage rune + flowing rune combo. Let's say Lazlo has 4 level 4 MP's. You can only do the Everlasting Mercy x2 tactic twice in a battle while you can use the rage rune + flowing rune combo more than 4 times in a battle.

The Rune of Punishment would be useful if it was just a normal rune, but it is useless as a true rune.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

the rune of punishment may be a bit useless in 4 but if you have played tactics it is by far the best rune in the game. which deffeintly makes up for 4's lack.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Looking at this, I don't see the RoP as being anything but normal in usefullness, which is dissapointing when compared to other true runes.

Let's compare Rune of Punishment with Souleater instead which is also a True Rune.

Level 1
Rune of Punishment: 300 damage to 1 enemy, 30 damage to caster
Souleater: 100 damage to 1 enemy, heal the amount of damage to caster
Obviously Rune of Punishment wins here as 100 damage/HP is just too small to make any difference.

Level 2
Rune of Punishment: 150 damage to all enemies, 50 damage to caster
Souleater: 300 damage to all enemies
Souleater wins for obvious reason.

Level 3
Rune of Punishment: Instant death to one enemy, 10% chance of instant death to caster
Souleater: 100 non-elemental damage to enemies, drains and heals caster by amount of damage done
I'd go with Rune of Punishment here. Souleater might be nice to heal the caster, but there's little point in doing 100 damage to the enemies. Might as well use another spell to cure the caster instead. However, instant death is instant death. And Rune of Punishment has 90% chance of instant death (since 10% chance of backfire) which is a good chance for sure, enough to take a gamble.

Level 4
Rune of Punishment: 500 damage to all enemies, 500 HP heal to allies (non-Lazlo)
Souleater: 1500 damage to 1 enemy
Facing 1 enemy, Rune of Punishment would deal 500 damage, and heal 1500 HP in total for 3 allies. Facing 4 enemies, Rune of Punishment would deal a total of 2000 damage and heal 1500 HP for 3 allies. To me, Rune of Punishment has better potential than Souleater.

How about that? It's not because Rune of Punishment sucks. It's just simply because True Runes were being "nerfed" in Suikoden IV to not overpower it (for easy proof, compare Suikoden I and Suikoden IV Souleater Rune and you'll see that Suikoden IV's was much weaker).

SoIf you want to say that Rune of Punishment is normal in usefulness, then do say the same thing about Souleater.

EDIT: A few things that I'd to comment on.

Quote:
Level 3: RoP- Instant death to one foe, 10% death against self. Cyclone: 300 damage to one foe, 25% chance of instant death. It's close, but I would give it to the cyclone rune. The direct damage is better against bosses and you don't have to worry about the possibility of dieing from it (which i think is much higher than 10% because everytime I have ever used this spell, the enemy lived and I died, it is possilb that I am just very unlucky though). ALso, instant deaths are noramlly only useful for when you fight one big normal enemy, but these can normally be taken out with physical attacks, making an instant death spell somewhat pointless, when one ould kill with phyiscal attacks or direct damage.

I beg to disagree. There are 2 situations where instant death can be used.

1. When an enemy can actually be instantly killed.
Obviously 90% instant death chance is better than 25% instant death chance. So Rune of Punishment would be more useful in this case

2. When an enemy cannot be instantly killed (usually boss fights).
Obviously this makes Rune of Punishment's instant death to be "useless" and Cyclone Rune's 300 damage would be better. However, don't forget that it is 300 damage to a single enemy. Rune of Punishment's Level 1 spell does 300 damage to a single enemy as well (though with 30 HP cost, but it's small enough that it's ignorable). So if a Level 1 spell of Rune of Punishment is pretty much the same quality of Level 3 spell of Cyclone Rune, I don't see how Rune of Punishment is worse.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Here I think Pessy nailed most of the stuff down..


One thing I don't understand is why you keep saying that TWO EM wastes mana while R+P doesn't. Both cost the same in terms of absolaute mana....or at least more or less the same. Obviously, mages with better MAG stat can use the spells more often....Lazlo MAG stat isn't exactly the most fearsome there is...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Black Pesmerga wrote:
Let's compare Rune of Punishment with Souleater instead which is also a True Rune.


No fair comparing the crappy Suikoden IV version of Soul Eater!

I'd like to do this same thing, but with various True Runes that you can use through the Suikoden games. I think that will give us a much more complete picture as far as 'worst' True Rune goes. Since Black Pesmerga already did a comparison with the 'nerfed' Soul Eater, I'll use the original. It's not as good as some of you remember, I'll wager.

Level 1
Rune of Punishment: 300 damage to 1 enemy, 30 damage to caster
Souleater: Instant death to one enemy.
True Earth Rune: Restores all status and field effects.
True Fire Rune: 400 damage in area.
True Lightning Rune: 900 damage evenly between enemies.
True Water Rune: Healls 400 hp for allies.
True Wind Rune: 300 damage to all enemies.

The Rune of Punishment doesn't even compare here. It seems like it might be useful, but it's just not stacking up against any of the True Elemental Runes except Earth. This is odd, because the Rune of Punishment's level 1 spell is usually regarded as excellent. It edges out the Soul Eater, because the Soul Eater's spell is useless in boss fights. The Suikoden IV nerf of the Soul Eater is lame, so I used the Suikoden I version here. I'd put the order as follows:

True Wind Rune
True Fire Rune (because it hurts your allies)
True Water Rune
True Lightning Rune
Rune of Punishment
Soul Eater Rune
True Earth Rune

Level 2
Rune of Punishment: 150 damage to all enemies, 50 damage to caster
Souleater: 300 damage to all enemies.
True Earth Rune: 800 damage to land-based enemies.
True Fire Rune: 700 damage to an area.
True Lightning Rune: 1000 damage to target and enemies behind.
True Water Rune: Silences chanting for a bit.
True Wind Rune: 300 damage to 1 enemy + instant death chance.

Here is where the Rune of Punishment begins to show its crappiness. 150 damage to all enemies is terrible. The Fire Rune can do that and the Rune of Punishment is supposed to be one of 27 True Runes, and it can obviously demolish one of Kooluk's fleet by spraying magic at them. I'm not getting it. I'd still rank it above True Water here because I think Silent Lake blows (except in Tactics) but seriously...Rune of Punishment's level 2 spell is some kind of sick joke. It should be noted that it's one of the most absurd spells imaginable in Suikoden Tactics though.

Level 3
Rune of Punishment: Instant death to one enemy, 10% chance of instant death to caster
Souleater: Destroys all enemies.
True Earth Rune: Protects allies once from all magic.
True Fire Rune: 1200 damage to one enemy.
True Lightning Rune: 1100 damage to all enemies.
True Water Rune: Restores 1 ally from death, status, and all hitpoints.
True Wind Rune: 500 damage to all enemies, 300 healing for all allies.

And here is where the Soul Eater shows its power. This is the broken as crap spell that makes the Soul Eater what it is in Suikoden I. The lame spell from Suikoden IV is...well, lame, so I'd actually probably give the nod to the Rune of Punishment. However, the problem with the Rune of Punishment's level 3 spell is that (in my experience at least) everything in the damned game is immune to sudden death. It's not just bosses. Plus, risking instantly killing Lazlo is never worth it in my view, especially in a game with no Resurrection Rune, requiring that you have Flowing Rune's level 4 spell to revive him. Ouch. Otherwise, there's a lot of huge spells floating around on the other True Runes, and the True Wind Rune has a spell which is basically as good as Rune of Punishment's level 4 at level 3 (less healing, but it heals the caster). I don't think 'possible sudden death to one enemy' can really compare to 1200 damage to one enemy, 1100 damage to all enemies, or 500 damage to all enemies + healing for the party.

Level 4
Rune of Punishment: 500 damage to all enemies, 500 HP heal to allies (non-Lazlo)
Souleater: 1500 damage to 1 enemy
True Earth Rune: 1400 damage to all land-based enemies.
True Fire Rune: 1500 damage in an area.
True Lightning Rune: 1800 damage to one enemy.
True Water Rune: 1000 damage to all foes.
True Wind Rune: 1200 damage to all enemies.

You are correct to say that the Rune of Punishment could technically deal more damage than the Soul Eater, but there are two problems with that statement.
1. Why are you using Rune of Punishment's level 4 spell against normal groups of enemies? I save all my best swag for boss battles, because normal enemies are easy. But that's just me, maybe you like to slaughter the peons. In that case, Rune of Punishment's level 4 is indeed different for mass combat. However, it is decidedly less useful against a boss, in spite of the healing.
2. My experience would indicate that doing small amounts of damage to all enemies is inferior to killing a single enemy instantly. A single enemy who is dead can no longer attack and deal damage, while several weakened enemies can all still attack. In this way, I would cautiously point out that the Soul Eater's spell is possibly more useful even in a massive fight.

Otherwise, neither the Rune of Punishment or the Soul Eater stack up against the True Elemental Runes. Arguing about 500 to all enemies or 1500 to one enemy is pointless when the True Fire Rune can deal 1500 damage to all enemies, or the True Lightning Rune can surpass the Soul Eater at 1800 damage to one. This is a complete list of the useable True Runes in Suikoden, keep in mind (unless you want to count Yuber's Eightfold Rune, but that would be pointless, so no) so this is no joke.

Conclusion: I'm not really willing to say that the Rune of Punishment is the worst True Rune (though it's close to the bottom), nor is it the best one. It seems so underwhelming because all of the Runes in Suikoden IV do, and there's such a limited variety of them. As Black Pesmerga pointed out, they were also trying to reduce the power of True Runes compared to previous games. However, the Rune of Punishment still has its uses...it's just...not as useful as most of the other True Runes.
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Ryusei

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rainrir wrote:
One thing I don't understand is why you keep saying that TWO EM wastes mana while R+P doesn't. Both cost the same in terms of absolaute mana....or at least more or less the same. Obviously, mages with better MAG stat can use the spells more often....Lazlo MAG stat isn't exactly the most fearsome there is...


Think of it this way. Lazlo has 4 level 4 MP's. To match the damage potential of the rage + flowing rune combo, Lazlo has to use 2 level 4 MP's in using Everlasting Mercy twice. Since it takes two MP's, you can only use that tactic twice for an entire battle.

But if you use the rage + flowing rune combo, you only use 1 MP (level 3 or 4 MP for rage rune and level 2 MP for flowing rune) for two different characters. Given that the number of level 2 and level 3 MP's is higher than that of level 4 MP's, you can use the rage rune + flowing rune tactic more than 2 times for an entire battle. The damage dealt would be higher than that of Everlasting Mercy as the battle progresses.

There is also the fact that if you use Everlasting Mercy, Lazlo won't be healed. So you'll have to spend another MP to heal him. But if you use Kindness Rain, all HP of all allies will be healed. Compare that to the 500 heal of Everlasting Mercy. Kindness Rain's heal is better. Therefore, using Everlasting Mercy twice would be a waste of MP if you want Lazlo to be healed.
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Rainrir

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, the implication of your analysis is actually trying to point to the RoP as the worst True Rune in combat. Since you basically analysed ALL the True Runes that are usable in combat.

Still the strength of spells in S4 was generally underwhelming. Maybe if we are to do some conversion from the S3 damage level to the S4 damage level, it will be fairer to compare:

* White is S3 while Violet is S4

Fire Spells

Blazing Wall
400dmg to target+foes+allies in area
300 fire dmg to enemies

Explosion
700dmg to target+foes+allies in area.
500 fire dmg to enemies

Final Flame
1200dmg to one foe.
700 fire dmg to enemies

Wind Spells

The Shredding
250 DMG to foes.
300 wind DMG to foes.

Funeral Wind
300 DMG to 1 foe + chance of instant death.
300 wind DMG to 1 foe + chance of instant death.

Shining Wind
500 DMG to foes. Heals 300 HP for allies.
300 DMG to foes. Heals 500 HP for allies.

Earth Spells

Earthquake
800dmg to all land-based foes.
800dmg to all land-based foes.

I will skip lightning since its tiers are messed up in the transition from 3 to 4.

Here we can see that Fire goit nerfed across the board with by a range of 25% to close to 40%. Wind has one spell that increases in strength while the other two stays the same. Earthquake also stays the same. Since, both fire magic and RoP magic hurts the user, the fact that fire got nerf for its lack of friendly fire can be more or less ignored.

By this we can see that by average the spells decrease in power by 15% (just a rough figure). So the runes in S4 are at 85% the strength of their S3 counterparts.

So by that virtue, we can how see that:

Rune of Punishment

Eternal Ordeal
300 non-elemental dmg to one enemy, 30 non-elemental dmg dealt to caster
350 non-elemental damage, 30 non-elemental dmg to caster

Double-Edged Sword
150 non-elemental dmg to enemies, 50 non-elemental dmg to caster
180 non-elemental dmg to enemies, 50 non-elemental dmg to caster

Everlasting Mercy
500 non-elemental dmg to enemies, heal 500 hp to other allies
600 non-elemental dmg to enemies, heal 600 hp to other allies
Which means that....it still kinda horrible, but at least is not as bad as before. BASICALLY, they designed the rune pretty badly and if it ever appears again it should be revamped. I think if there is no asociated penalty, like it should when HERO4 uses it, it would be better ranked...

Note: I see your post below. Thanks for making it clear to me. I was thinking about everyone spamming lvl 4 spells
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