| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Rune hunter
Joined: 02 May 2006
Post Count: 461
Location: Tenzan Pass
236548 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: What do you think of the US use of Extrodinary Rendition |
  |
|
Well, i was just watching a news in CNN about extrodinary Rendition and im wondering what do your think about it?
Should the US use extrodinary rendition in its war against terrorism? Do you think they send those who are captured by the CIA to countries that allow torture? Do they truly have the support of the country where extrodinary rendition took place? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Tullaryx
Custodiae Corvi
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Post Count: 5577
Location: Apacheta
4092785 Potch
200 Soldiers
20 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I know that the majority of people would say no publicly to this practice, but as I always ask them when they give that answer: What do you think should be done to make the terrorists talk when in US custody? These are people who are fanatical in their beliefs and mollycoddling them during interrogation usually does not work since if they're not afraid of what the interrogators are doing to them then they have no incentive to tell the truth.
This practice is really not that new. Police and law enforcement officials have been doing this with criminals for as long as we've had a police force. Telling criminals that if they don't snitch on a partner's culpability to the crime they will make sure that they're put into the general population of the prison system where quite a variety of things could be done to him by those who are there for life.
The CIA is not the only intelligence agency to have tried this method. The British MI6 have done the same as do the Israeli Mossad and other major Western intelligence groups. Is it an acceptable method of gathering information? Torture never is but anyone who says that at least a modicum of truth doesn't come out between the lies to stop the torture are naive to a fault. Yes, people will confess to anything just to stop the pain and agony, but that doesn't mean they won't tell the truth either. It will be the interrogator's job to sift through all the lies to find the information to verify and confirm as being true. Plus, how do you make a fanatic confess to something they vowed to take with them to the grave?
_________________
  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scarlet Assassin
Disciples of Death
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Post Count: 5509
Location: Xasta Grassland
331436 Potch
0 Soldiers
2442517 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I never understood why torture was outlawed in the first place. If you catch an enemy troop you should be allowed to beat him to a certain point, after all, if you left him on the battlefield he might've died anyway. Kick the sucker and let some dogs bite him for an hour, then see if he'll tell us the address to his cave.
_________________
Chief of Beat-em-up Honeys Division, Devoted Protector of Lady Tifa Lockhart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Masaya
Flying Fusillades
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Post Count: 7917
Location: Mar-Uruk
222963 Potch
75 Soldiers
3635 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with Scarlet. I think the rules on torture shouldn't be abolished, but maybe lightened or lifted to a extent. Although it has a very unpopular support, torture could prove extreamly useful in finding which holes are worth digging. Plus, it'll force the terrorists to start spending more money on syonid pills to escape torture, rather than bombs.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Arenegeth
Joined: 23 May 2005
Post Count: 1995
Location: Ceresfjellet
1978687 Potch
7000 Soldiers
150 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don’t believe what I’m reading here…
You people actually think that we should torture other people?
Hmm…. No wonder society is rotten…
I don’t have anything else to say if I do you may want to burn cigarettes on me or pull out my nails…
_________________
"I am ye who walks his own path and thus I walk alone" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ujitsuna
Red Shoes Dance
Joined: 24 May 2006
Post Count: 4823
Location: Pale Plains
936547 Potch
12000 Soldiers
675 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| What about the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay? Some of them are just normal men that have been arrested pretty much unlawfully and are just being held because of their race or belief, should we allow torture there? No I don't think we should. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scarlet Assassin
Disciples of Death
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Post Count: 5509
Location: Xasta Grassland
331436 Potch
0 Soldiers
2442517 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Arenegeth wrote: |
I don’t believe what I’m reading here…
You people actually think that we should torture other people?
Hmm…. No wonder society is rotten…
I don’t have anything else to say if I do you may want to burn cigarettes on me or pull out my nails… |
No need to be nasty Arenegeth. These are our opinions, not something you should be mocking so lightly. My opinion my differ from yours but it's nothing to be made light of. Belittling people's opinions is just a nasty thing to do.
I don't know about Masaya, but I'm a strict authoritarian and I believe in following laws, both made and those of common decency. If someone breaks those laws they deserve to be shown what it's like to be treated as though the laws don't exist, and if that means putting out a cigarette on a guy that tried to blow up a bus full of innocent people, give me a light.
Edit: Hey Uji, check out the reports on Gitmo. The worst torture that's been inflicted on a prisoner is that his air conditioning didn't work for a few hours. The prisoners have been caught tearing up their own holy scripture and blaming it on guards, throwing urine and feces on the staff, even vomiting in the face of the staff. These prisoners are acting like animals for no reason whatsoever and they're being treated much better than they deserve.
_________________
Chief of Beat-em-up Honeys Division, Devoted Protector of Lady Tifa Lockhart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tullaryx
Custodiae Corvi
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Post Count: 5577
Location: Apacheta
4092785 Potch
200 Soldiers
20 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Again the question I put up for those who don't agree on any for of torture as a means of gathering necessary intel: what do you propose should done to get the information needed without the use of torture?
Mind you, people who don't believe in torture also think using sodium pentothal and sodium amythal also falls under the broad umbrella of torture techiques.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Decado
Desert Elite
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Post Count: 7646
Location: Mar-Uruk
357208 Potch
0 Soldiers
4283 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So by that logic would you say that you are fine with American soldiers being tortured for information should they be unfortunate enough to be captured? Because by condoning torture of prisoners you are in effect saying that this kind of behaviour is acceptable and justified in the right circumstances.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tullaryx
Custodiae Corvi
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Post Count: 5577
Location: Apacheta
4092785 Potch
200 Soldiers
20 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, its been proven that in most conflicts the US has been a part of torture or similar means have been used on them to either gain tactical and/or strategic information. It's also been used to coerce such American prisoners to participate in propoganda against American forces.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scarlet Assassin
Disciples of Death
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Post Count: 5509
Location: Xasta Grassland
331436 Potch
0 Soldiers
2442517 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Decado wrote: |
| So by that logic would you say that you are fine with American soldiers being tortured for information should they be unfortunate enough to be captured? Because by condoning torture of prisoners you are in effect saying that this kind of behaviour is acceptable and justified in the right circumstances. |
I said that I agree with the method. They see us as the enemy and they will use it much in the same way. Torturing someone you see as in the wrong, to get information about their military is an accepted behavior in my book. YOu can't get me to say differently by changing the circumstances. Of course I don't agree that our troops should be tortured because I don't agree that we are in the wrong.
_________________
Chief of Beat-em-up Honeys Division, Devoted Protector of Lady Tifa Lockhart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Timbo
The Wandering Prophets
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Post Count: 2964
Location: Darja
410837 Potch
300 Soldiers
835 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Scarlet Assassin wrote: |
| I never understood why torture was outlawed in the first place. If you catch an enemy troop you should be allowed to beat him to a certain point, after all, if you left him on the battlefield he might've died anyway. Kick the sucker and let some dogs bite him for an hour, then see if he'll tell us the address to his cave. |
My take on the outlawing of torture is that the American constituation says we can't give cruel and unusual punishment to American citizens and I would think we'd do the same to other people.
| Quote: |
| Edit: Hey Uji, check out the reports on Gitmo. The worst torture that's been inflicted on a prisoner is that his air conditioning didn't work for a few hours. The prisoners have been caught tearing up their own holy scripture and blaming it on guards, throwing urine and feces on the staff, even vomiting in the face of the staff. These prisoners are acting like animals for no reason whatsoever and they're being treated much better than they deserve. |
This was also told to us by the people who are doing the torturing. Having a brother in the military and talked to other people in the military, they all said that was most likely a cover story, as they had been given lessons on torture while in the military. One of the more disturbing ones described to me was when they would get military personnel to dress in the uniforms of the prisoner's army and pretend to create an elaborate rescue, only to beat them up as they left the building. This would be done to make prisoners skeptical if an actual rescue happened and to make them feel more helpless and hopeless.
_________________
"There is no normal life, there's just life. Now get on with it" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sophita
The Wee Kitty Grand Duke Defense Brigade
Joined: 13 May 2004
Post Count: 4744
Location: Reina Mia
498078 Potch
1330 Soldiers
2725 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think it's a hell of a lot harder to take any supposed moral high road in a war on "evil" when the practices you use are just as harmful.
| Quote: |
| [quote="Tullaryx"]Again the question I put up for those who don't agree on any for of torture as a means of gathering necessary intel: what do you propose should done to get the information needed without the use of torture? |
Who says that information is even good? I don't know about you, but if I don't know what's going on, and someone keeps pushing my head underwater so I can't breathe but says if I tell him something, he'll stop, well, I don't know about you, but I may be a bad liar but I'll tell him a big fib just to get him to stop.
_________________
 SCII month continues! DueFiumi.com
| John Layfield wrote: |
| But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ujitsuna
Red Shoes Dance
Joined: 24 May 2006
Post Count: 4823
Location: Pale Plains
936547 Potch
12000 Soldiers
675 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Timbo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Edit: Hey Uji, check out the reports on Gitmo. The worst torture that's been inflicted on a prisoner is that his air conditioning didn't work for a few hours. The prisoners have been caught tearing up their own holy scripture and blaming it on guards, throwing urine and feces on the staff, even vomiting in the face of the staff. These prisoners are acting like animals for no reason whatsoever and they're being treated much better than they deserve. |
This was also told to us by the people who are doing the torturing. Having a brother in the military and talked to other people in the military, they all said that was most likely a cover story, as they had been given lessons on torture while in the military. One of the more disturbing ones described to me was when they would get military personnel to dress in the uniforms of the prisoner's army and pretend to create an elaborate rescue, only to beat them up as they left the building. This would be done to make prisoners skeptical if an actual rescue happened and to make them feel more helpless and hopeless. |
This is my point, I'd prefer an independant study, but the US government will never give us that, since all the stuff that goes on there is probably so illegal it'd damage the Bush administration critically. I'm not going to believe a US statement on that until a third party verifies it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Arenegeth
Joined: 23 May 2005
Post Count: 1995
Location: Ceresfjellet
1978687 Potch
7000 Soldiers
150 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I wasn’t mocking I was been sarcastic having an opinion that we as humans should torture other humans it’s archaic at best…
And a complete disregard of the human rights…
And what if by some unfortunate circumstance you are found suspect of a blowing of a bus while in reality been innocent does that mean that we should inflict inhumane torture upon you so you can speak the truth (which you will most probably confess to some fabrication to stop the pain)?
There’s a reason why the world community abolishes torture…
Being pro-torture is like being pro-racism because to me there are not Uncle Sam’s good boys torturing terrorists is a human torturing another human…
I suppose you agree with what happened in Abu Ghraib then?
_________________
"I am ye who walks his own path and thus I walk alone" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
