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tekknopirate
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 Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:28 am Post subject: Suiko3 Flame Champion mistakes. (SPOILERS) |
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I'm not sure if you have to mark spoilers but I'll do it for safety reasons. Anyways I noticed quite a few mistakes in Suiko3 chp.4 with geddoe's and chris. Konami made it painfully obvious hugo is supposed to be FC. I'll start with geddoe.
Sana say's to hugo "son the shadows of the dead don't protect your loved one's you do. OK I'm no brillant scientist but If I'm correct Geddoe falls into that catogory. Sana was saying those aren't the FC loved ones there hugo's. So that eliminates geddoe. And after you fight the Luc and the rest geddoe says "shucks" Luc response "your asking the impossible". Thats a story mistake In hugo's version hugo say's "stay back" which makes luc response make more sense.
Chris has mistakes or clues that push her from being FC. I played through chris story and got Luc's chapter in. In Cynder Ruins Luc say's "Sarah his title maybe new to him but he still possess a true rune. When did chris become a he? Also chris tells hugo you "overestimate me I will not hesitate to bloody my sword to protect me comrades". That's two eliminations on chris. And the last is obvious chris killed to many karaya and people to be FC. Would you follow someone who killed your mother, father, freind etc. not me.
So you can tell Hugo is supposed to be FC and his story has no real typo's or story problems. |
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Thief
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Hugo is officially the Flame Champion according to the recent information, yes?
Especially in those promo for the cellphone straps that come with Genso Suikoden IV pre-orders. |
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Shrew
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Ugh... I don't understand what you're trying to say about Geddoe. But as to there being an official hero... the game is made so that you can pick any hero. I agree that the story leans toward Hugo as a choice, but there's still a choice.
The grasslanders may hated Chris, but they still respect her. You see this in the game if you choose her, the other parties are initially hostile to her. But when you face annihilation and slavery at the hands of Harmonia, following someone you know is capable doesn't seem very wrong. And the fact that she was chosen as the Flame Champion, the hero who saved them from Harmonia before, is a big boost.
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Alseid
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Suiko3 Flame Champion mistakes. (SPOILERS) |
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| tekknopirate wrote: |
Sana say's to hugo "son the shadows of the dead don't protect your loved one's you do. OK I'm no brillant scientist but If I'm correct Geddoe falls into that catogory. Sana was saying those aren't the FC loved ones there hugo's. So that eliminates geddoe. |
As i understand it, what Sana tries to say is that he shouldn't expect an old hero to come up and protect him and his people(which is what he was doing by seeking the Flame Champion), instead, he should find a way to protect them himself(taking upon the power of the FC).
By "shadows of the dead" she means the old FC. Even if Wyatt and Geddoe belonged to the old Keepers of the Flame, they're still there, alive, and they can still fight on Hugo's side, as the new FC(should he become it).Even more so, Wyatt/Jimba is part of the loved ones Hugo seeks to protect.
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| Chris has mistakes or clues that push her from being FC. I played through chris story and got Luc's chapter in. In Cynder Ruins Luc say's "Sarah his title maybe new to him but he still possess a true rune. When did chris become a he? |
That may or may not be related to the choice you made when asked if she'd take over the identity of the FC (after that her name changes to the one you gave to your FC) or just become his successor(her name remains the same). In the first case, by taking the identity of the old FC, she may be reffered as a HE. But this is just speculation on my part, i wouldn't know if that phrase changes in the second case.
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| Also chris tells hugo you "overestimate me I will not hesitate to bloody my sword to protect me comrades". That's two eliminations on chris. And the last is obvious chris killed to many karaya and people to be FC. Would you follow someone who killed your mother, father, freind etc. not me. |
Great part of the story of Suikoden3 is about forgetting grudges and forgiving your enemies, to work with them to achieve a greater goal.
You can clearly see this in the scene where Thomas tells Hugo that his mother was killed by the Grasslanders, and Hugo realizes Thomas is helping them, despite the grudge he should hold against grasslanders, as he holds one to Chris and all the Zexen people.
And then there's all the scenes of grasslanders and zexens working together and all that.
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Sophita
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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The game definately leans toward Hugo as a choice, but ultimately I don't think it matters who you choose. There are a few typos (the Chris booboo is a big one; even if she takes on the FC's name she's still of the female gender/sex, right?), but I think that's kind of inevitable. Considering some of the shoddy translations of the past, I don't think a couple of mistakes is actually pretty decent.
I don't think the first "mistake" you caught is really a mistake, though. Like Alseid, I think Sana was saying that it was folly for them to come seek a dead hero and expect all their problems to go away - The Flame Champion can't help them; they have to fight for their future instead of hoping for someone to come along and make things better for them. Basically, I think she's saying that to change the future, you're going to have to take action in deciding your fate. :p
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Saben
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually I haven't played the Japanese version of the game, but I know that archaically the male Japanese third person pronoun "kare" used to be gender inspecific, although in today's society "kanojo" is used for females. Possibly in the Japanese version the archaic meaning of "kare" as "he/ she" (in English we might say "they" I guess) was used so when translating it the translators read it by the modern meaning of only "he", or the code was too hard to change to allow for changing he/ she. |
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I could definately tell Hugo should be the flame champion. A few being that If you picked Geddoe he would not have the True lightning which he should have and Chris should have Water not Flame. |
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tekknopirate
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Sophita,
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I don't think the first "mistake" you caught is really a mistake, though. Like Alseid, I think Sana was saying that it was folly for them to come seek a dead hero and expect all their problems to go away - The Flame Champion can't help them; they have to fight for their future instead of hoping for someone to come along and make things better for them. Basically, I think she's saying that to change the future, you're going to have to take action in deciding your fate. :p
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Don't geddoe fall into that catagory. He would be dead if not for the True Rune. And those aren't geddoe loved ones there all dead. And the whole my friend thing is alittle stale. Or not good enough in this situation. Hugo and chris have loved ones to protect but chris has killed to many people that she is suppossed to protect. Hugo has killed no one. |
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Cirape
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| tekknopirate wrote: |
| chris has killed to many people that she is suppossed to protect. Hugo has killed no one. |
Hugo has killed people. He killed alot of Zexens, they were just faceless soldiers and didn't really show up as plot elements in the game. Yes, those were random battles, but I find it damned hard to belive that he went through a war and killed no one.
If you want to go with the same logic of "the Grasslanders wouldn't follow Chris because she killed a bunch of them," you need to apply that same logic to Hugo and the Zexens.
Sure, he's not as famous as Chris, but he IS the son of one of the Karayan Cheif. And judging by how the average Zexen feels towards the Grasslanders in the begining of the game, they wouldn't trust ANY Grasslander to be able enought to lead them and win the war.
Of course, he does proove himself capable and, given the situation they are in, quickly wins over the loyalty of the Zexens.
Granted, yes, the Zexens aren't as hostile towards Hugo-as-FC as the Grasslanders are towards Chris-as-FC in the beging, but the logic still flows in the same direction.
Also, um, I'm not sure what you're getting at with that talk about Geddoe. He still hsa loved ones .oO Sana and his team for one.
We know you like Hugo. We know the manga gives him as the offical FC and the game leans towards him as such. But the game is still designed so that ANYONE can be FC. If it wasn't designed to allow that it would force you to choose Hugo-as-FC.
The only mistakes I see are the refeances to Chris as male, but that can be explained away by translation (maybe?) or simply the mergining of Chris' image with the old FC's. |
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tekknopirate
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I also noticed hugo is the only one called flame champion in his ending. Which makes since knowing how all the endings play off each other. Or basically one movie cut up. So If they did make another Suiko after Suiko3 Hugo would be the FC in it. I don't get why konami did that tho. You never see the result of the ending in the next Suiko. Except Suiko1 it connected with Suiko2. You see no effect of Suiko2 ending in Suiko3. |
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Sualtam Lugh
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Watch the magic. As much evidence as there is saying Hugo is the proper Flame Champion, it's not a legitamite statement unless Konami comes out an says "Hugo is the real Flame Champ".
That doesn't mean we can't believe he is. I've had many arguements where I've watched Chris Loyalists get destroyed due to lack of evidence. Their final arguement was that in which Konami never said anyone was the True Flame Champ.
You should figure it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks when it's speculation, what's right to you is right, unless you're proved wrong.
Geddoe wielded the True Lightning Rune. QED, He ain't the Fire Hero. The Lightning rune wasn't rejecting him or anything. It's your choice to make him the hero.
Chris's pap was the Water Rune Bearer, so by some kind of...."family logic", the rune is kind of passed down. Although this arguement is weak, I could always go say beat Chapter 4, in Chris's prospective (not sure if she's the FC or not) and you get a more in depth view of what's goin down. There's extra video that furthers the Water Rune connection.
Hugo? So he's Karayan. His reason is he wants peace in the Grassland. He wants to make sure no one else dies like Lulu (Albiet Lulu was an idiot for charging a Calvary Knight. Dumb ass....You can't dagger someone with a sword thrice as big as thee.) So it kind of makes sense that Hugo would inherit the power that saved the Grasslands before.
Am I right? To myself, I am. And if it stays open, what I say is right to myself. When Konami says "Joe, you're a god damned idiot, and this is what it actually is", that's when we can all be at peace. |
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Elc
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| tekknopirate wrote: |
| You never see the result of the ending in the next Suiko. Except Suiko1 it connected with Suiko2. You see no effect of Suiko2 ending in Suiko3. |
I think it might have more to do with the timeframe between II and III, since a lot can happen in 15 years and the Dunan Unification war doesn't really affect the Grasslands or Zexen significantly. Though the backstory is contained within the Old Books in Suikoden III.
There are definitely influences from Suikoden II upon Suikoden III, particularly Futch and Bright, and Suikoden I references between him and Sharon where he tells her she'll get him kicked out of the Dragon's Den again. |
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TheStrategist
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I have a question.....why did Geddoe greet Sana at the Flame Champ Hideout as Sana, then as the Flame Champion??? At first i thought that she had the rune..what's the deal with that?
Anyways, I think Hugo should have been the only Flame Champion in the game. In other words, they shouldn't have let the player pick. It made sense for Geddoe to keep his True Lightning Rune, and Chris to take her father's True Water Rune. Plus, the original flame champion was born in the grasslands (as they say in the game) and so was Hugo.
But if the case about killing other peolpe shouldn't give the bearer the right to the True Fire Rune, I think is not necessary. There are always unwanted deaths in battle. Because Hugo used to want to pick a fight with anyone that made him mad. I was surprised he didn't kill Sgt. Joe :). I'm sure Geddoe has made his mistakes on the battlefield.
Anywho, I think Hugo is the true bearer of the rune, and that it should have been stuck that way... But i still think it would have been cool to see the former flame champion come back. |
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Lucied
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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You're confusing me, tekknopirate. Although, I blame that on your broken English. My apologies if it's not your native language. But it's a little difficult to follow you.
No, not much Suikoden 2 events are seen in Suikoden 3. There have been official accounts of what happens, and what is official, however. And the bridge was gapped with Genso Suikogaiden Vol. 2, and the Shinshos.
Yes, Hugo is the official Flame Champion. However, Konami wanted to give players the chance to play the game from different view points.
The original Japanese, as far as I know, had a gender-nutural reference to the Flame Champion, as previously stated. However, these kinds of references are typically translated into male pronouns when brought to the US. So all mention of that was turned male. They never did put in options and switches to change the pronoun if you are Chris. They're translators, not programmers.
Chris only killed when following orders, and in self-defence. Lulu was out of self-defence, for example. Hugo, and everyone, for that matter, realized who the true enemy was. So they settled their differences to combat the threat.
Suikoden 3 has themes of forgiveness and friendship. Along with teamwork, and civility. I think it shows that quite well. |
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