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Battle System in Suikoden VI: Change it or Keep it?
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Battle System in Suikoden VI: Change it or Keep it?
Change it
35%
 35%  [ 19 ]
Keep it
64%
 64%  [ 35 ]
Total Votes : 54

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Crystal Odessa

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The problem I have with the battle system is that it generally doesn't require much effort on the gamers part. Indeed, I play Suikoden for it's rich political story and it's interesting world. However, battles could seriously benefit from changes to make them more fun. Afterall, Suikoden is a game and not a novel. Gameplay is normally something that gives a lasting impression to a gamer.

To those who believe that Final Fantasy has been reasonably static throughout the ages, if anything it has been one of the best examples of how combat systems can evolve. The first three games had a generic battle system. The player had a turn in which he or she would input commands for each character and they would perform them. Then the enemy group has a turn. FFIV started ATB. Innovative for it's time, ATB allowed the player to have a greater sense of action as it gave each character and enemy turns based on speed. Starting with FFX, fresh new ideas were being introduced including CTB, ADB, and a faster-paced ATB. ADB is a good example of how traditional elements can be incorporated into a new system. ADB allowed free movement throughout the battlefield while still having an ATB bar. If that's not change, then what is?

I'm not asking for anything too drastic, but they really should be trying new ideas and not going back on them when a few people complain. Afterall, change is a good thing. Suikoden just needs more effective (fun) gameplay in order to compete with other games.

...And then they should add more War Battles and Duels.
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mumbay

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think they should keep it.

IF they were to change, they could change it so much that we wouldn't understand what to do. Lets say they changed an attack word or they changed combination attacks as well as changed magic. It can change the way we play completely. It is okay if the tweaked everything a little however. Lets take the Suikoden IV combo attacks. The combo attacks needed you to fight with the other combo attacks with eachother for some battles and then afteer more battles they level up making the combo attack powerful. I found the Suikoden III battle system the best so i say they keep that one i prefered it over Suikoden V because the skills allowed uniqueness among chatacter but if you picked tyhe same for most of them they're not unique anymore.

War Battles- they should have more i thought the number in Suikoden V was enough even though we couldn't use all the character. IT was also good that we were allowed to go to the stragist and have war battles in suikoden IV.

Duel- they definently can use more. There was only like 6. they could atlest give us training duels.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I say that suikoden should keep the battle system( six character party) becuase it's unique and different and fun.
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Crystal Odessa

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Err...a six character party isn't a battle system. The battle system is turn based.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I personally don't see what is wrong with changing to a real time action based system. I probably never will see what wrong with taking away random battles. I always thought that this was a good thing. I personally believe that if Star Ocean 1, Tales of Phantasia, or any of the earlier Seiken Densetsu games made it to America they would have easily knocked Final Fantasy off its throne. It is just not true that action based RPGS are new. Many of them just did not make it to U.S. or anywhere else when they needed to when many of the RPG gamers were forming their opinions on how RPGS were made.

Don't get me wrong I do not believe that Suikoden needs to change, it is just that so many are against it solely because it is different. The system will be expanded on so we might as well accept that. Many other series are not changing the battle systems, but they are tweaking them. Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria, Final Fantasy 12, Star Ocean Till the End of Time,and Tales of the Abyss just to name a few.
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Jorge Prima

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I loved the Sukoden V battle system, I say if your going to keep it at least improve it a little. Because if you notice, none of the suikoden battle system are alike. If its a little change like Suikoden 1 to 2 or if its a huge change like four was. As long as we keep a 6 person party(with support slots) i'm happy.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've said this in several topics on several forums now, but I'll say it again.

RPG's can usually not be made challenging without making the process incredibly tedious.

Any non-action based RPG is simply the most base form of equation exchanging imaginable for a modern videogame in this day and age. No matter how you dress it up, making it a job system, or an ATB system or whatever will still result in exchanging multipliers based on stats gained by winning more multipliers in more battles to decide who wins and who loses.

So the way to make the game more challenging is... make the enemies multipliers bigger and yours smaller. This makes the enemies harder and because stats rule all in RPGs, the main way to get around this is to fight a thousand more battles to get enough levels to restore the difficulty of these battles to something managable. EXCITING! No, wait, the word I was looking for is YAWN!

As for action based RPGs, I consider them a different genre, plain and simple. They're just an offshoot of 'adventure' games back in the days of the NES. I don't consider Zelda an RPG, it's an adventure game. And even if I didn't have any issues with them, they still frequently run off the same equations and multipliers, except you also have to do the moving about yourself for the same results, like some sort of horrible bastard child of RPGs and action games, where you get to pretend what you do makes a difference even though, as always, stats rule all. Yay, even more boredom!

RPG battle systems were a makeshift system back in the day that has managed to linger until the present. RPG battles are just things you do to allow you to get the next piece of plot, no matter how you dress it up. Tweak it all you want, try and make it as enjoyable as you want, but you may as well keep the damn thing consistent.
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Masa

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You'd be right JBL if not for one series of games:

Mario RPGs. The Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi line in particular. Rather than yawnful encounters, you actually have some control over the battle in terms of how well you attack or defend based on timing and... just basic gaming skill. But otherwise, there's no real way otherwise to adequately make an RPG harder. Except maybe harder puzzles, but puzzles with random battles in between are spawned from Satan.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While I love Mario RPG's and have played just about every one, I've never encountered a battle more difficult than any in the Suikoden series nor would I consider the battles fun based on the system but more because the enemies are always fun.

I mean, fighting Flawful in Superstar Saga is great because of his mode of talking, not because I get to rhythm-tap A to get a critical.

The only thing worse that puzzles in RPGs in general are puzzles in RPGs that could only make sense if the game characters had access to either a top-down view or a third-person camera to move.
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Masa

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Block puzzles are a horrible dungeon device and I'll never forgive Zelda for popularizing them.

But I do think that the ability to use Timed Defense does add an extra element of difficulty to the game. While sure, the game is not harder than Suikoden (it's a Mario game after all), that kind of time ability might be more decisive in a 'regular' RPG.
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Aesa

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Perhaps Konami should examine all RPG (good and bad) and their battle systems, come up with some innovation or somewhat and mix them all together for a whole new system that feels comfortable.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I didn't read through the other pages, which is just bad etiquette but whatever...

I think that limiting the amount of runes readily available in the game would make it a lot more interesting. Rune shops that don't sell runes but instead affix them or just use the assemble command would make battles something that you take more seriously as you can't rely completely on magic or statbuffs like double-fury-double anymore. Or even revamp the rune system, like perhaps start the game with lower tier runes than the basic ones Something like a flare rune before Fire and before Rage, for example, with weaker spells or a distinct limit on how they're used.

It makes the fact that the true runes are just more powerful than we think plus it could help make the game more challenging. Stats play very little in the game when you think about how abusive three rune slot users can get with the right setup.
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Aurelien

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield wrote:
RPG's can usually not be made challenging without making the process incredibly tedious.

Well like you said, it's can usually not be made challenging without making the process incredibly tedious. However, that means that it can actually be made to be challenging without making it tedious. That's why my main focus was the boss fights only.

To me, when I play RPG, I like having battles and stuff, but the normal battles are the ones that I played just to kill time and have exp. Since Suikoden adopts a quite different EXP system when compared to other games (which makes Suikoden games to be much easier for the developer to prevent people from going too high level), I don't mind one bit with the difficulty of the normal battles.

However, when it comes to the boss fights, I've been quite disappointed by the lack of the challenge. And if the change of battle system (to be more challenging) is only implemented for the boss fights (let's say 20 or so boss fights in the whole game), then it will not be a tedious process since we're not going to be involved in gazillion of them. That way people can still have challenge in the boss fights. Boss fights should be challenging, normal battles should not be challenging. That's why boss fights are supposed to be "boss fights" which include higher level of difficulty.

I've mentioned it before, but I think Shadow Hearts II battle system would be great for boss fights in Suikoden games. It would have the individual turn thingy (whatever you want to call that as I don't know the actual official term for such thing) so that the boss can sneak in between our characters' turn, and it would have that Ring thingy that you must hit multiple times if the character can attack multiple times. That way the characters that can hit multiple times would actually require the player to hit the ring properly before they can really attack multiple times.

It wouldn't be a bad idea either if the bosses' difficulty level is to be increased even more. That way bosses would have higher SPD that us in which we could see the boss having more turns compared to our "normal SPD" characters (which would make Ninja/Thief-like characters with high SPD to be a bit more important because they can keep up with the boss SPD).

I put much emphasis on SPD stats because the turn-base battle system really makes the SPD stats to be pointless. Why bother having high SPD if it doesn't make much difference whether we go before the boss or after the boss because the boss isn't strong enough to kill us anyways? To make SPD stats matter, it has to affect the order of turns, but that alone isn't enough, it should also affect the number of turns that the characters have. And that can only be done by scrapping the turn-base battle system.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Without scrapping the turn-based battle system, it reminds me of Breath of Fire III, where a high enough speed or agility stat could give a character an extra turn usually at the start (or was it the end?) of your regular turn to use as you wish.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well that's not exactly what I wish though. What I wish is to have more importance of SPD stats so that it reflects the speed of the characters properly. Having certain "high enough" SPD/AGI to get an extra turn isn't exactly the proper reflection of the SPD stat itself (because it only covers the "if you have high speed/agility, then you get bonus move").

When it comes to SPD stats, it is important to pay attention to also the low SPD stats and not just the high SPD stats. Therefore, if say for example Humphrey has 50 SPD while Hix has 100 SPD, and Stallion has 200 SPD, it would make sense that Stallion (Fast) would be 4 times quicker than Humphrey(Slow) while Hix (Normal) is twice quicker than Humphrey but half as quick as Stallion.

With turn-based battle system, the "normal" bar is the slow character. Because no matter how slow you are, if you're in the party, then you will get your turn before the turn ends. You might be the last to move, but you'll still go before the others can have their second official turn. To me, that's just not properly reflecting the SPD stats. If a mage is 1/4 as stong as a melee character and deals 1/4 damage compared to the melee, then why can't a slow character who is 1/4 as quick as a speedy character move 4 times slower than the speedy one? It's only logical if the slow one is slow and the speedy one is speedy.

Though I must say that there will be even less reason to even try to use Genoh if this is implemented. I'll probably just let him tank and do nothing since he'd grow even older before he gets his turn. Hahahaha.
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