| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ayreon
Universal Migrators
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Post Count: 181
Location: Nowhere
7311 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:40 am Post subject: |
  |
|
OK you call it a '' strategical retreat'',well for me thats just running away!! xD And besides Snowe is not jsut a pawn,he is a noble and the son of Lord Vingerhut. :S
_________________
''Sail away to Avalon.......'' |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Trevoke
The missing liberty
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Post Count: 1924
Location: Madra
25000 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No, Snowe was a recent graduate; he was a pawn. You can be noble all you want, but if you're a soldier, you're a pawn.
Which is - PRECISELY - why Vingerhut wanted Snowe in positions of power, so he wouldn't be a pawn.
_________________
There are weapons you cannot hold in your hand.
You can only hold them in your mind.
-- Bene Gesserit Teaching |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ayreon
Universal Migrators
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Post Count: 181
Location: Nowhere
7311 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But you gotta admit that Lino ran away.Telling the people that he'll come back doesn't justify what he did.
_________________
''Sail away to Avalon.......'' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trevoke
The missing liberty
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Post Count: 1924
Location: Madra
25000 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What are the choices?
1) Stay in Obel with his people, fight, lose (I wouldn't give him any chance of winning that fight), die.
2) Run away, disappear, build army, take Obel back.
Which choice is the best?
Compare with Snowe:
1) Fight bravely, maybe die, but damage the enemy
2) Run away and never, ever be trusted again with a position of power.
_________________
There are weapons you cannot hold in your hand.
You can only hold them in your mind.
-- Bene Gesserit Teaching |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ayreon
Universal Migrators
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Post Count: 181
Location: Nowhere
7311 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Compare with Snowe:
1) Fight bravely, maybe die, but damage the enemy
Thats what both of them should have done,and you are forgetting something really important,and that is the fact that Lino was the King,therefore he has MORE chances of gathering an army.In the other side Snowe was still a kid neglected by his father,so he did not have the experience in battle,and more important in life.
_________________
''Sail away to Avalon.......'' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trevoke
The missing liberty
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Post Count: 1924
Location: Madra
25000 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, allow me to agree wholeheartedly with you. Snowe should NEVER have been captain of the ship, because he did not have what it takes to be captain. Commander Glen knew this. He told Katarina... "There are times I will not be able to overpower him" or whatever, speaking about Snowe's father. Snowe's father wanted Snowe put in the position of Captain, while Glen knew perfectly well that Snowe did not have the moral fiber for it.
Snowe SHOULD have fought, because he SHOULD have had the balls, the courage, the calmness of mind to fight and not flee.
The hero, (us) chose to fight because, damn it, it's our ship, and the hero understands more what it is to be a captain.
Lino on the other hand, did not flee by lack of moral fiber, but because he knew it was a battle he could not win. Dying for nothing is worthless, but live to fight and win another day is a good thing.
In short.. Snowe should not have been captain. He ran away, not because he sucks or whatever, but because he wasn't ready. It is his father's fault.
_________________
There are weapons you cannot hold in your hand.
You can only hold them in your mind.
-- Bene Gesserit Teaching |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ayreon
Universal Migrators
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Post Count: 181
Location: Nowhere
7311 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well at least we know this.*SPOILER*
In the end Snowe is forgiven by the people of Razril and he becomes a citizen.I think when you recruit him he finally admits that he blew it off,though he never talk about that,you can see that he finally matures.Anyways im going out of the topic.
_________________
''Sail away to Avalon.......'' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zaj I mean Mike
I just sell weapons
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Post Count: 371
500 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
You were with you'r girlfriend in your room and you were playing a video game? Not my place to question I guess :|
_________________
Three Billion
Chinese
Can't Be Wrong
CLERKS |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sana
Acolytes of Chisha
Joined: 24 May 2004
Post Count: 28
Location: Valley of the Winds
6534 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There's a HUGE difference between what Snowe and Lino did, sure, yes, they both ran away, but they both had much different odds. In Snowe's case, the odds against him weren't that high, shown by the fact that the naval battle was pretty easy, and there was only two ships. Instead of fighting he ran away, especially without taking anyone with him or anything, he fled to help himself.
Lino, on the other hand, had no chance. Sure, there was also only around three ships, which isn't too impossible, but if those three ships failed, it was highly likely that another Kooluk fleet would have arrived and disposed of the exhausted army. He fled knowing he was going to come back and liberate Obel and save them. Snow fled leaving them all to their "death" as he thought would happen. Lastly, he used the lame excuse of "my arm wouldn't move!" Even though he was rowing a boat. C'mon! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OptimisticPessimist
Dum Spiramus Tuebimur
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Post Count: 987
Location: Montmittel
84561 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, let's add to the fact that the pirate ships were likely NOT to have any more backup than the ships they already had, whereas Obel, if they happened to defeat 1 fleet, would have to face another 3 fleets from Kooluk.
Therefore, I find Snowe's escape from the ship he was captaining as cowardice and stupidity, for not being able to assess the situation calmly. This is because, while the Gaien ship was outnumbered, it was not un-winnable with careful thinking.
And if you wanted to speak of Dario's attack later, I would remind you that Dario was hired by the Cray Trading Company to attack Razril. He did not come for revenge for Brandeau.
Compare that to facing the 1 fleet when they reclaim Obel, obviously the damage done to the island and it's citizens would be a lot more if they chose to stood up to the Kooluks during the first assault.
I would think Lino's decision was a wise one, because he chose to "live to fight another day" and to "fight another way".
_________________
♪~ OptimisticPessimist ~♪
Tensui Star of Harmonia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sophita
The Wee Kitty Grand Duke Defense Brigade
Joined: 13 May 2004
Post Count: 4744
Location: Reina Mia
498078 Potch
1330 Soldiers
2725 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Better to be alive and fighting than to be a dead hero. If Lino hadn't escaped, chances are the Kooluk would have "made an example of him" and probably killed him. The Kooluk were so overpowering that I don't think Lino's death would have served to motivate the other islands to take control of their own fates - between Lino's death and the destruction of Iluya, they probably just would have surrended to the Kooluk without hesitation. He made the choice that was best for the people; it took someone with Lino's gravitas (remember, to most of the island chiefs, that golden seal is worth more than anything else) to inspire others to stand against the Kooluk and repel the invading army.
| Ayreon wrote: |
| I think Lino acted like a cowar,because he left Flare and Setsu to their own fate.Now that doesn't mean that Snowe's act was a good thing,but from the beginning everyone was hostile against Snowe,because he was a Vingerhut.I believe that the people was jealous about him being a Captain,thats why he felt so much pressure and decided to leave the battlefield. |
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I might be - I don't remember a lot about that part of the game), but I don't think Lino necessarily knew that Flare wasn't on the ship until they'd already left Obel. He probably thought she went with Hero IV to help bring aboard citizens (and to be honest, I think he suspected she'd pull something like this and he was thinking that Hero IV would stop her or at least prevent her from doing it) and he probably thought she returned with the hero. It's a big ship, and when you're under attack, you don't exactly have a lot of time to do a headcount. It's a mighty big ship, and if I were Lino I would have assumed that Flare was just in another part of it until enough time had passed that I realized she wasn't there. Maybe it's just my memory, but I don't exactly remember him telling Flare to go off on her own like that.
Snowe was nobility and got a free pass thqat other characters didn't, so yes, I bet some people resented that; it's only human nature. But if you talk to the citizens of Razril in the beginning, they don't hate Snowe; they love him. They're full of congradulations and praise for him. One person even harps on Hero IV for how grateful he should feel to the Vingerhuts. It's only after Snowe abandons his ship that the people of Razril turn against him and start praising the hero.
A captain is supposed to be someone who is willing to think more for their men than for themselves. A captain should be willing to, if it comes down to it, sacrifice themselves for the sake of their men. Snowe put himself before everyone else, and when the pirates attacked, he weighed his options; the safest way for him (but NOT the rest of the men) was for him to abandon ship. He left his men to die, and if Hero IV hadn't saved the day, they probably would have. Snowe ranked his personal safety above the personal safety of everyone else on that ship, and he knew it. He knew there was no way the others were going to be able to save themselves. He abanonded them anyway.
It's a completely different situation to what Lino did. With Lino, the odds were stacked against him and he had to do what would be best for his people. The people of Obel suffered under Kooluk rule - and without Lino fighting them, they'd continue to suffer for the rest of their lives. There was no one else who had the reputation necessary of a leader; there was no one who had the right qualifications for it. King En Kuldes holds the golden seal, and if the Kooluk got their hands on that, it would pretty much be giving them a mandate, as it's proof of soveignity - of the divine right to rule. Heavy stuff. Coincidentally, what was best for the people was what was best for Lino, but that wasn't why he did what he did.
_________________
 SCII month continues! DueFiumi.com
| John Layfield wrote: |
| But bubbles... children love bubbles! XD |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OptimisticPessimist
Dum Spiramus Tuebimur
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Post Count: 987
Location: Montmittel
84561 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sophita wrote: |
| Correct me if I'm wrong (and I might be - I don't remember a lot about that part of the game), but I don't think Lino necessarily knew that Flare wasn't on the ship until they'd already left Obel. He probably thought she went with Hero IV to help bring aboard citizens (and to be honest, I think he suspected she'd pull something like this and he was thinking that Hero IV would stop her or at least prevent her from doing it) and he probably thought she returned with the hero. |
He knew that Flare was not on the ship, as there was a scene between him and Hero IV about Flare's choice to stay in Obel.
_________________
♪~ OptimisticPessimist ~♪
Tensui Star of Harmonia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Beecham
Wind In The Grass
Joined: 20 May 2005
Post Count: 988
Location: Zexen Forest
33221 Potch
75 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The point stands that it wasn't his choice, it was her's. The King had to leave for the safety of his nation; only he could truly raise the necessary armada to take back his nation. The princess, on the other hand, felt her best place was underground with the people, to give her father time to return. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
