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I have a serious problem....around this game.
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"complexity and great character development of SIII."

Now this is where my same arguement comes in. Only now are people recognizing S3 as good. When it came out, they were the same gripes.

What Haru keep reitterating is something so key. Suikoden 2 (Or 1. It's the fact that they are much older) is the best one. And yea, they won't make another game THAT good. You have to make realistic standards. That and Suikoden 1 was a hidden gem (Like Metal Gear Solid. In fact a lot of Konami's work starts in a way like that.) Suikoden HAD to be good. They made enough sales from Suikoden 1 to make a sequel, which undoubtedly took in the most Suikoden fans. You now have one of the best rpgs ever made (While this is opinion, I bet this can be argued somewhere and be proved, NOT by Suikoden fans.) and it's not going to be beaten by a predecessor. This isn't Square. I mean, look at Final Fantasy. The Fanboy following of FF7 was more then any game possible. I mean, we're talking more fanboys of FF7 then players of CS (Since the good old days of 1.1) and Halo. That's a LOT of people. They know they're not going to get a better game then 7 (Which wasn't THAT great), so they've set their standards that way. Pick a game, and be a fanboy to it, and expect no more then it. Or be a fan of the series, and know you can't best 2.

And yea, Nut's got it. What does 4 have though? Well, there's a few things. Not only the few character referances to FF6 and FF7 (I'm sure somebody here jumped when they say Lino and said "Holy cow it's Cid Highwind" only to be reassured by HIS SPEAR. Or laughing when they recruited Gau.), you have the unique ship battles, which are fun, and not too challenging. You have a new world map system, that I think schools the other ones. (Sure I love walking around to music.....but there's something about boats.) You get to see a little more about Ted. The numerous references to Scarlet Moon (Oh how I wish you could go there....hey....a question for Stupid questions/Stupid answers.....) and well....the hero and his buddies aren't bad to boot. There's something about Cel-Shading that was ruined when every game picked it up. A little game I call Jet Grind Radio (Jet Set, for you importers) on the Dreamcast. Forever will Cel-Shading have been done justice in that game. I don't want Suikoden with cel shading. I don't think it would suit. As for the story....well....what exactly do you want? You want all the drama, and the stretching of events? I mean....let's go back to Suikoden 1. And honestly, go back and play it. It's fresh in my mind. You have your resistance, and then your typical Suikoden gather men, take over places, strike the final place. The only huge things in Suikoden 1 were Gremio's and Teo's.......and Sanchez. Other then that, there wasn't THAT much. (Say all you want, I know what there is, you don't have to remind me. They did a better job revolving around each place you had to take. Having a point, helping the elves, and such. I know, I know, don't say it.) Suikoden 4, while not as strong, has the same point. If anything, they're doing the game justice by not thinking up some huge fantastic story line. One, it's in the past, so it can't be huge. If it was some huge rebellion, and take over, you would have had to hear about it in the other games. I mean look at Scarlet Moon, they're huge. And they talked about it in 2 and 3 (The Liberation.) Konami has to cover their asses in this one. They have to be careful. If Suikoden 5 is later in the future, you'll see how they fix it. You'll see.
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Noot

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Suikoden I was very simple, and because Konami wanted to go back to the roots SIV was also simple. I think fans have been spoiled by II and III and are now expecting a huge complex clusterflub of events in every game. I admit I am spoiled too, that I have certain expectations, but that can't be helped because I'm such a fan of this series. My disappointment in SIV is caused because I think they did TOO WELL a job of mirroring SI's gameplay. I just choose to look past its flaws and enjoy it for what it is, regardless of what I think needs to be changed.

Good call on the historical significance, Pyroflame. If the conflict of SIV was TOO huge, then everyone would know about those cooky Islanders in the South by the time of SI, II, and III. It had to be on a smaller scale but still emphasize the importance of the liberation from Kooluk to the rest of the islands. That's not easy to do, and with that perspective I can appreciate the simplicity of this game much better.
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Beecham

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not so sure I agree on keeping the events small to avoid historical problems - this is a matter of a hundred fifty years, after all. A lot of the people who spoke about Toran in the second and third games either lived in a nation that had been at war with SME and Toran in their own lifetimes OR were otherwise somehow related to one of those conflicts. Kooluk may have been at war with SME, but it seems like that is either no longer the case, or just needs to be retconned into the story of GS1 - pretend people talked about it even though none of the game's actual lines of dialog mentioned it, in other words.

But otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly, that standing on its own this game is a good, enjoyable game. And more than the previous games, it has replayability. That's one bonus none of the other games can -honestly- claim - GS3, perhaps, to try out different Champions, but otherwise the only reason to replay any was to try to beat Clive's Quest in GS2.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What are you talking about? There are SO many reasons to replay older Suikodens. Suikoden 2, for instance, has so many extras you won't find them all in three replays, let alone 1. Tons of secret scenes, three endings, plot effecting choices, and a huge diverse (far more than S4) cast of playable characters not all of which you can get in one playthrough make Suikdoen 2 have immense replay. One thing that adds replay the all the Suikodens is playing through while doing everything wrong. Kill everyone you shouldn't. Recruit no one. Make Simone bark like a dog when you return his rose brooch! Suikoden 2 also has a huge amount of rare items and runes you might get when defeating enemies. So many that no one would even find them all with out using a walkthrough. Using different runes and items add to a new replay.

The replay in Suikoden 4 is good too. But what does it have that other Suikodens don't. New game plus? The ability to skip cut scenes is nice but the carrying over of items is a joke because it only takes over the items you weren't using, i.e. the crap you didn't want. Sure, you could save some good items by not using them, but wouldn't that just make an already morbidly easy game even easier?
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Kuromimi




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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

'Tons of secret scenes, three endings, plot effecting choices, and a huge diverse (far more than S4) cast of playable characters not all of which you can get in one playthrough make Suikdoen 2 have immense replay.'

The replay value certainly isn't that good. I can't recall many 'secret scenes', care to give ten examples? I don't recall many choices that greatly effect the story either; running from Tinto and protecting Nanami is it, right? You can't get four characters in one playthrough, that's it. Seriously, Suikoden II would warrant a second playthrough just to see the stuff you missed. Three or more just isn't necessary.

A second playthrough of Suikoden IV is good for those who want to create a very powerful team; they build up their collection of the rare runes. There are some handy features in new game plus: Such as every location on the map being shown at the very beginning, scenes can be skipped, lead character can be changed (good for those who find the hero's movements awkward). There are two endings to this game as well. I'm fairly sure both cannot be viewed in one playthrough.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, well when you're rescued by Viktor and Flik from being executed in Kyaro, you can chose to go after Nanmi of leave her behind. If you leave her you get a few different cut scenes and it's quite hilarious when you meet back up with her.

One of the least seen scenes is if you take Nanami back to North Sparrow Pass (I think you must do it before you're fort is burned down). Very funny, you should all do it.

There is a huge amount of extra text when you recruit characters from Suikoden 1 and bring along other characters. I recommend bringing Viktor and Flik to meet Tengar and Hix. You can even bring Apple to meet them in the one brief moment she joins your convoy towards the end of the game The sheer fact they included such a rare scene is awe inspiring.

Bring different "maidens" to recruit Sigfreid each has their own amusing text. And of course there's the afore mentioned Clive quest and escape from Tinto.

Suikoden 2 just has more stuff to do and more scenes to see, such as the cooking game and the secret village. If you did everything the first time by using a walk through, then technically it wouldn't count as more replay value. But to do everything in Suikoden 2 takes about 50 hours. I did everything (so far known) in Suikoden 4 and it took only 40 hours, but that because I spent huge amounts of time leveling up and searching for characters. I'd imagine you could beat the game having done all the extras in near half that time if you'd done it before.

That is all stuff off the top of my head. I'm sure I could go on and on but I think I've made my point.
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Replay value is opinionated. I could do all those things in one game, get the good ending, and not care for the others. Another would jump all over those. Don't mention replay value. As for things to do affecting replay value, well, getting 108 stars in Suikoden IV....some seem like a challenge, unless you don't scour the boat often.

I mean, in Suikoden 1, I was able to get 108 starts simple. IV.....bit of trouble, so I had to use a strag guide (I'm a man who likes his good endings...besides, I wanted to see what Snowe had to say. They didn't do a bad job with that.).

Also, you guys are talking about things that have no relevance to Suikoden 4, because they can't. Suikoden 1 and 2 were direct sequels. I say it that way because, even though three years have past, it's literally into the north, with a lot of the same characters. Nut saw where I was going with the time complex. You can only blame Konami for their choice of time, not the content involved in said time.

"I'm not so sure I agree on keeping the events small to avoid historical problems - this is a matter of a hundred fifty years, after all."

Too bad. Suikoden 3 talked about the other two games. And hell, I've never seen the words Scarlet Moon said, so many times. Believe it or not, that's a big part of Suikoden 4. Scarlet Moon was screwing over Kooluk, in the North. They didn't believe it, and Elanor used it against them, very much so. If you don't think that Scarlet Moon invading the Island Nations is a big part of history (Unwritten up to this point, so they don't spoil something they don't plan to cover: What I mean is, you will never see a game with an already explained story.) whether you like it or not. Any invasion is. You'll see, when Suikoden V comes out. I don't know where they plan to put it on the time line, but it will make sense of the point of Suikoden 4. Not just the simple fact to introduce another true rune, which is a pretty badassed one, in my eyes.
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Kuromimi




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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

'The sheer fact they included such a rare scene is awe inspiring.'

Aren't you overreacting just a tad? I mean, what exactly happens in that scene? Does something amazing happen that will make me think "I have to see this!" or does she just say "Hey Hix, hey Tengaar, nice to see you two again."
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Beecham

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pyroflame wrote:

"I'm not so sure I agree on keeping the events small to avoid historical problems - this is a matter of a hundred fifty years, after all."

Too bad.


Excuse me?? Don't brush off my valid points so easily. Over hundred years ago is a hell of a lot longer than the fifteen years we've seen between II and III. By three, the events of four are nearly a hundred seventy years in the past! Why would these events be on -anyone's- lips anymore? It's old news, no matter how you slice it.
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Noot

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think 150 years after the 2nd Fire Bringer War, people on that continent will still be talking about the Destroyers. That is a huuuuuge event in this world and will not very easily be forgotten. SIV's conflict was much simpler in comparison. People still talk about the Civil War in America, and that was 150 years ago (almost). Was the conflict in the Island Nations really the same level as the American Civil War? It will go in the history books but will not really change the culture of the Suikoverse in future games.
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Beecham

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

People still talk about the Civil War for two very good reasons. For one, we have an establish schooling system that has as one of its requirements a history line of coursework. And for another, you get some idiots still telling their children about the so-called "War of Northern Aggression" even when the Civil War began when the South attacked the North. Idiots.

The latter would be a reason why the story would still be told later, but you have to remember the Suikoden world is not our own; things we can take for granted, like public schooling, simply don't exist. And even if something along the lines of the latter existed - and you have to be pretty bitter about having lost to enforce that kind of dogma on your children to have it survive more than a couple generations that way, let alone a hundred fifty or more years; without history classes at school keeping it peoples minds, I'm not sure even the most bitter families would still remember - it would still be a local phenomenon. Even as near as the Scarlet Moon Empire, only the scholars would know a thing about the war of, erm, Kooluk Agression? Hey, anyone know what this war is officially called, btw?
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