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A note about Leon Silverberg...

 
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Maiazuru




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:25 pm    Post subject: A note about Leon Silverberg... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I know some people think that Leon Silverberg is misunderstood, but I don't happen to think so. I think that Leon is a formidable strategist, but he absolutely fails as a person.

If one looks at his actions, one sees that he never actually did anything out of concern for the troops or the people. Everything he did - in the Empire, in Toran, in Highland and finally Dunan, was based on a desire to suceed in the best possible way. Yes, he didn't want to have too many losses. But was it because he wanted to prevent these deaths, or because keeping more men alive was militarily more efficient? His personality points to the latter answer.

Whatever good he did was done simply because it was convenient. Whatever evil he did was done for the same reason. Remember that the Kalekka Incident was originally his idea. He pushed for it and, being who he is, convinced others to follow. Kalekka and its outcome proves that he is an incredible mind. But the fact that he decided to instigate a massacre points to a cold mind who sees efficiency before humanity.

This is why I prefer strategists like Shu and Mathiu. They're not quite as good strategically, true, they rely on instinct more than on strategy, but they do see the losses and do feel something about it. I have great doubts that Leon Silverberg ever truly did.

Well, that's my two cents on the Silverbergs. :D
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, no one is gonna argue with you that Mathiu and Shu are more personable people. Leon Silverberg doesn't have very many "personable" qualities--that's his character.
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Maiazuru




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, I guess so. He's a cold-hearted fellow. I can understand Mathiu's distaste of the man when I look at his overall deeds. I'm not denying he's the best strategist among the Silverbergs. I just don't agree Mathiu and Shu were lame. They did come up with good ideas.
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Calupict

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think a man like Leon is a people who hard to tell about his feeling. He is not a kind of people who can easily tell people what is in his heart.
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Maiazuru




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, a man like Leon probably doesn't show his feelings much. I just think that someone who orchestrates a civilian massacre is by no means someone to be respected. With all of his great talents, he could have found a better way, if not one quite as efficient. But, efficiency being the way the man seems to live his life, he probably didn't care about the many people - his own compatriots to boot - who were innocent and were killed by this scheme.

He's not evil. Just heartless.
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

i'd guess that leon believes *imo only* that emotions interfere too much with action; he's a man of planned action, so allowing emtion to have a place would ruin his plan of action, and even more importantly, change the desired outcome. his focus is on the action and it's outcome, rather than the human factor.

mathiu, apple, and to a lesser degree, shu consider the impact on those involved, making their strategies more 'humanized,' meaning they try to lessen the loss of lives overall; the approach makes their decisions less bold/aggressive, since most agressive moves would require discounting loss of lives/damage to those involved.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Of course, the fact is that if not for the Kalekka Incident, a lot of innocent civilians in Toran would have been killed by the Jowstone Army so it goes both ways. Of course, Leon would never come up with a strategy for the purpose of killing people. Obviously he tried to think of ways to reduce casualty, but the Kalekka Incident was the only possible way for the Scarlet Moon Empire to take the battle to Jowston. Mathiu even agreed and helped Leon implement the Kalekka Incident, although he disagreed with the spirit of it--there was no other option. That's why Mathiu left the military after the Kalekka Incident and precisely why he was tormented by his position as a strategist for the Loran Liberation Army.

Whether you like it or not, a strategist ends up composiing strategies that take innocent lives. Mathiu's strategy of making Jowston take Senan led to innocent lives being taken in Senan by the hands of Jowston forces (as stated in publications), and Shu's strategies have ended up taking lives as well (such as allowing allied soldiers to pillage Grassland villages -- explained in the gaiden). No strategist is free of sin. Leon's act is merely the most well known.
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Maiazuru




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, although Kalekka was by far the worse of these incidents. As for agreeing to the Kalekka incident, all but one of the generals agreed, even though some are shown to have a sound moral compass. Like Mathiu, they probably agreed only because they had nothing better to suggest at the time and also because they knew Leon was a better strategist than they.

Yes, Shu and Mathiu's plans also took lives. The difference is that it bothered them, while I don't see Leon being bothered in the slightest. Leon is a superb strategist who has lost a lot of his humanity.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's fairly easy to come to the same conclusion as yours, but Leon Silverberg may simply be hiding his emotions--he may smply feel no need to show them. It is easy to come to the same conclusions as you do, given the circumstances, especially when his presence in the plot is largely as an enemy strategist. You dont' really get to see much of what actually happened behind the scenes. However, I think the statement he makes when you speak to him at the rooftop of your HQ in Suikoden 1 tells you a lot about him. He says, "Our job as strategists is to acertain the layers of facts--to let emotions interfere in that is sadness."

This seems to tell me that Leon certainly recognises the role of emotions in strategy, but that he intentionaly distances himself from that in his role as a strategist. He essentially keeps his emotions out of his professional judgement, even if he may (and may not) have his own ideas about his actions. Beyond that would be up to interpretation.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

yes, that is likely; in order to get things done that don't agree with you, you have to close off your mind and heart to the actions.

it's difficult, yet necessary in war.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
"Our job as strategists is to acertain the layers of facts--to let emotions interfere in that is sadness."


Its actually largely because of that very sentence that I say Leon has lost part of his humanity, perhaps a lot of it, doing what he did. Only a cold heart would say something like that matter-of-factly.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You're allowed to have your opinion, but the same comment makes me feel that Leon is indeed human. Responsibility can sometimes clash with your own gut feelings, espeically when you are given choices that both end up in the deaths of many people. In such a situation, what can anyone do?

It is smiliar to this question. "You are in a burning elevator and your lover is on the right side while two other people you don't know are on the left side, you can save your lover OR the two people you don't know by pushing them outside. What would you do?"

Leon would help the two people he doesn't know. He doesn't place his own priorities beyond what is best for the greater good. Meanwhile, Mathiu would probably choose to save his lover instead, because his strategies are geared towards protecting those he wants to protect.

Which apporach is better is up to the individual.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Another note about Leon Silverberg. True, he will do whatever it costs to end the war with the least amount of casualties, but he will never go as far as disobeying his master. This is shown numerous times when he doesn't stop Jowy from calling off the attack in Jowston Hill, and making his troops retreat from Rockaxe in order for a dying Nanami to return back to Northwindow.

Albert, however, will do anything, including manipulate everyone close to him to see his goals flourish in the end. So while I see the reason why some people say they are alike, I actually beg to differ in that scenario.
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Maiazuru




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, that type of decision seperates the 'logical' from the 'emotional', and there is no real right or wrong to that particular situation. Both Mathiu and Leon would be right or wrong.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think that Leon is a moral person, but he understands his responsibility as a Chief Strategist so he must not let the more "human" emotions interfere with the job. I think he's perfectly capable of sympathy, but I don't think he's capable of giving his opponent the edge. His goal first and foremost is victory, with the least amount of lives lost on both sides as possible. That seems like a person who really does value human life.

After the conflicts, Leon vanishes. But why? I think it's guilt. I think he may supress his emotions in order to achieve victory, and then once it's over he hates himself and tries to hide. Why else would he be in Kalekka in SI, which is now a ghost town thanks to him? I think he's trying to deal with his emotions, but he only knows people in a war-time setting and doesn't know how to connect once his job is done.
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