Opinion on Israel-Palestine war

[Kohaku]

I wanted to know about everyone's oppinion on this long war.
Now let's go to the history, as someone might not know the real story.

In the late 1800, the Jewish wanted to return to the promised land that was mentioned by God, as they believe they are the chosen one. That's the general thing. Correct me, it doesn't have to be the promised land, Jerusalem (Eretz Yisrael), but what they wanted is to have a jew country, and it said that the country would be somewhere around africa. Situation changed when bolshevik revolution broke in Russia, because after the revolution the jewish there were really oppressed and they wanted to have their own country. Those from Rusia were very religious, and they never accept the country to be in african region (in this case, Uganda). The land had to be Jerusalem. This sadden David Ben Gurion (means David the Lion Son, he changed his name to show his identity as a jewish) as it would be easier to had a country in a place where there's lessen people. Then they made a pact with the Britain that they would be given the land, while in years before the british already made a promise that they would give independence to the palestines!.

Then WWII broke and the Jews were sacttered from their land, and with the support of the United nation they declare the Independent country of Israel at 1948 with David ben Gurion as the first president. Gurion is a moderate man that wanted the arabs and the jews livew togeher in Harmony. The Arabs disagree and this lead to a massacre of an arabic village by some Jew Extrimist. After that Moshe Dayan took control of the military, and cold blooded he was. A large number of arabs immigrated from palestine (about 80% of them). The situation got worse when 5 arabs country defeated by Israel in the 5 days war, and Israel took the region of Sinai and Gaza. In 1967/1968 (I forgot) Yasser Arafat took the lead of PLO, the Palestine Liberation Organisation (correct me if I'm wrong). His struggle got Plastine a peace treaty at Camp David, and Later in Oslo in 1993 where Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin made a very promising peace treaty. Everything seemed to get better until the killing of Rabin in 1995 by an Israel extremist. Netanyahu and Ehud Barak doesnt make things better but not worse as after Ariel Sharon took the throne. The intense oppresing of the palestines begin once again, he won't listen to the UN and he tore away all the peace treaty thad had made before.

Now let's go to my oppinion. Firstly, if thre isn't any anti-semitism in europe, there won't be Israel. Think of it, that it's the racism of the ignorants that caused this. Second, The extremist make things really worse, both of the Israel and the Palestines. I'm a Moslem, and Islam told us that we should treat others regardless of their religion equally, and you can only make war with someone if he started it, and if you were thrown out of your homeland. I never agree with the suicide bombing as it only make your struggle look worse in the eye of the international people, and whatever you think of it, it's suicide. Same goes to the Israel that kills the civilians for the vengeance. Third, because some people couldn't think clearly that they done everything in the name of religion!, and also the ignorance of othres. Israel could have got their land in Uganda, where's still unoccupied. Before 1948, Israel make a proposal to got only very little land in palestine, and the palestine reject it when accepting it means the Israel country only exist in that small region (only 5-10 % of the Israel land now), and they could live together in peace. Some of the arabic country also didn't sympathyze with them, and they tried to sent away the immigrant from their country, telling them that they're only cowards that running away from homeland without a fight. Fourth, the general oppinion of Israeli youth saying that the arabs must be sent out of Palstine.
The best thing to do now is for them to look back, that they're all human walking in the same earth, that regardless of their race and religion. Now Arafat is dead and I don't know whether things could get better or not. I can only give my wish that someday they may live together in peace.
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[Stormbringer]

*sigh* The whole thing makes me really depressed...
Isn't part of the Isreali argument that they 'inherited' the land or something? If I sound misinformed, try to forgive me, we don't really get good coverage of world events in the US :roll:

Back to the Israeli thing...the whole thing doesn't make sense to me. They moved out of the 'holy land', right? Then another people moved in. Then the Isrealis want the 'holy land' back. According to my logic the Isrealis shouldn't get the land back because they gave it up without a fight, kind of like a finders-keepers thing. Not to mention how many Palestine and Israeli _civilians_ are being killed. It's rather idiotic on the side of the Israelis, although I do have sympathy for them because of the halocaust, but that's not a good enough reason to kick people out of their land.
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Set 'em on Fire!

[Marshmallow]

It's a depressing situation. I see valid arguments on both sides about why each group should have the land, but I don't think they should kill each other over it. I also don't condone the suicide bombings that have been utilized by the PLO. One thing I'm not sure of, did the Jews leave Israel freely initially, or was the land conquored? I had believed that it was the latter, but I'm not sure. On the whole, I think there should be some type of compromise that would let both groups live on the land in peace.

[Glen Cott]

This situation is frightenly similar to the political situation in Northern Ireland.
The extremists on both sides won't give up and it's the people in the middle who get hurt.

It is quite depressing, but after a while you realise there's not much you can really do.

[Stormbringer]

[Gaara]

Well being a religious war, the Jews & Muslims have been at each others' throats for quite a while now, and I doubt they would ever get along, work things out, and live in peace with each other.

[Vextor]

It's hard to say whether the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be resolved anytime soon. Yassir Arafat was extremely unpopular among the Israeli because he was the founder of the Fatah, and many think that his death makes peace possible between Israel and Palestine. Mahmoud Abbas will probably succeed as the President of the Palestinian Authority though--which may not help. Abbas was one of the founding members of the Fatah as well, and has been closely associated with Arafat since the very beginning. Of course, he was always more of a negotiator--but he has previously equated the Israelis with Nazis, so he isn't liked in Israel very much either.

There's problems with Israel as well--the Sharon government has been acting in open violation of United Nations resolutions and World Court decisions. There is no other country in the world that has been condemned so frequently and has been so indifferent to the condermnations. This is not just an anti-semitic attitude, it is a fact: Sharon has ruthlessly violated Israeli and international laws. The world is getting tired of Sharon's policies. The USA should impose sanctions against Israel unless Sharon learns how to behave. However, due to the fact that money talks in US politics (and Bush being one of the worst cases), that is not gonna happen.

The numerous terrorist organizations in Palestine do not help the Palestinians at all. These terroirist leaders (such as that of Hamas) routinely claim that they are fighting against Sharon, but they don't. They only kill ordinary people who have nothing to do with Sharon's actions. If you believe the polls (that show Israeli voters very divided), many of the victims of Palestinian terrorism are even opposed to Sharon's government. It would be funny, if it weren't so tragic. These are not only terrorists-- these are really dumb ones.

A few people who posted above asked how Israel was created to being with. Israel was established by the United Nations in 1947. The national broundaries were set simply by looking at what areas had the highest concentrations of Jews (they already lived there). The area previously belonged to the British (it was a colony) that they won from the Ottoman Empire after World War I. Interestingly, the Palestinians were also offered their own nation back then, but their leadership rejected that.

For peace to happen between Israel and Palestine, you'd need neighboring nations to exert more pressure. Jordan and Egypt have consistently rooted for a peaceful solution, but Syria makes everything difficult.

Ideally, the UN should get involved more, but the USA has undermined the UNs cridibility too much in the recent years, that they have less clout.

By all means, the future seems bleak.

[Kohaku]

[Vextor]

The Babylonians conquored Palestine a very long time ago, which lead to the Babylonian exile (where Jews were brought to Babylon) but that area was conquered so many times and the Jews were kicked out so many times, which lead to the disapora (Jewish people being scattered throughout the western world). However, Jewish people have always lived in that area in one way or another, even though there hasn't been a Jewish nation since Biblical times until 1947.

And I wasn't criticizing Arafat's accomplishments at all. In fact, what I was saying, Schala, was that many other people seem to think peace would be easier without Arafat, but it won't be that easy with Abbas either. Arafat is pretty much the reason why the Palestinian Authroity exisits today. Even though it was achieved through what is considered "terrorism," the USA was also created through similar tactics against the British. The problem with Arafat comes in after the Palestinian Authority came into existence. It is widely known that Arafat tolerated corruption within his government. A lot of money ment for the people of Palestine was instead distributed among his close confidants. This is why Arafat's personal bank account has over $1500 million, which is money that Arafat diverted from national coffers.

It's important to recognize the achievments of poiliticians, but it is also important to understand their shortcomings as well. Otherwise, there'd never be any peace.

[Kohaku]

OK then
anyway SARS Admin, I wanted to ask about your oppinion on the US participation in this conflict. As far as I know, the USA had support Israel for a long time and they veto every UN resolution for the war that gives bad impact for Israel. Because of this Sharon easily overcome the UN. What do you think about this?
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[Vextor]

Sharon would not have had very much support from the USA if not for 9/11. 9/11 made it possible for hawkish politicians (such as Wolfowitz, who is Jewish) to push their agendas against the Palestinians. If not for 9/11, a politician with such polarizing and unpopular views such as Sharon would never have received open support from the USA.

The USA, thanks to Bush, is somewhat diplomatically isolated, especially in regards to the war in Iraq. England is their best ally, but even their contribution is minimal, and the conflic is not a major issue for Great Britain--they have their own domestic issues. However, for Israel, any conflict in the middle-east immediately becomes a domestic issue. Thus, Sharon and Bush share a common goal in this regards. It's natural for the two of them to seek each other's support.

It's unfortunate that these two utterly incompetent leaders are iin charge now, but that's how things are. The suicide bombers don't help, because that makes the common Israeli vote for candidiates who would be tougher on the Palestinians.

Whenver I see a video clip of when Yassir Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin shaking hands nearlt 10 years ago, I wonder how things have gotten so out of hand.

[Starslasher]

Hm, whenever i think about the relations of the Middle East, i think about that moment where Arafat and Rabin were shaking hands, with former US President Clinton present.

But it was a mistake putting Sharon as their Prime Minister. Especially since he was part of the Israeli army, fighting the Palestinians himself. (Sigh)...

When i was discussing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with friends and family, the topic of Zionism came up. The Zionist were pushing for their return to the Holy Land. It would seem biased of me to type this, but there was a Muslim who said that Zionism was not only concerning the establishment of Israel, but also taking the nearby lands as well, which the Muslims occupy.

I also discussed about the suicide bombers. Apparently, some of the imams advocating the fight against the Israelis said that it(suicide bombing) was allowed, despite suicide itself being forbidden. Not so clear about that myself.
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Guardian of Greenhill & Devoted Protector of Oulan



Bork! Bork! Bork!

[Vextor]

Sharon was a part of the Israeli army, but so was Ehud Barak (who was a Lieutenant General) and even Yitzhak Rabin. All Israeli citizens have to serve the military (except the Haredi Jews), so whomever the people vote for, you'd end up with an ex-soldier. Of course, Ariel Sharon did some pretty brutal things while he was in the military--he founded and led the notorious Unit 101. Unit 101 was created specifically to raid villages in enemy terroitorry to kill civilians. It was basically a terrorist squad. The Qibya Massacre is very famous--Sharon killed 70 innocent civilians while they slept. He threw hand grenades into their houses while they slept, and machine gunned anyone who ran outside. Of course, he was merely following orders from above, who did in fact order him for "maximum killing," but he certainly didn't hesitate.

Sharon was elected mainly because Barak was very incompetent. Barak had good intentions, but he, along with Bill Clinton, blamed Yasser Arafat for the breakdown of peace talks back in 2000. Of course, Arafat probably did make it difficult because Arafat's ultimate goal has always been the destruction of Israel. However, Barak and Clinton shouldn't have blamed Arafat so openly. That led to the Al Aqsa intifada, which really hasn't ever ended since.

There is always a certain level of "Zionism" when it comes to Israel, but the concept is blown out of proportion by Palestine and other Arab Countries. Israel simply wants control of their own land and existence without fear of attack. During the many wars it has fought against neighbors, Israel has gained substantial territorry, such as the whole of the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon. However, Israel has since returned those lands, which clearly shows that they are not interested in expansion. They are more interested in self-preservation because most of their neighbors are hell-bent on destroying them.

What's unfortunate is that Jews and Arabs lived in relative peace in that area before the UN gave Israel that land in 1947. Too bad we can't go back to those times.

I think suicide bombing is morally absurd, although it is a tactic that can work in certain situations. However, it won't work now--it will only make the average Israeli dislike the Palestinians further, allowing those like Sharon to retain wider support.

Edit: This just came in the news, but Moshe Katsav, who is the current President of Israel, stated that the walls between Palestine and Israel should be torn down. This coming from the very man who initially PUSHED for putting up the walls! What in the hell is going on here!?!?

[Kohaku]

Ah yes, Sharon and Rabin was worked under Moshe Dayan, who's later became the defense minister, and in the next few year he became a prime minister (after Golda Meir if my memory didn't failed me).

About the walls, I think at first they thought that the US would support them, but they didn't (of course, the tragedy of the Berlin wall still remain in everyone's heart and it would be foolish for the US to support them) and the whole world seems to stood against Israel, and of course the president needs to do some manuever to save his face. But it didn't save him, it even makes the whole world think he's just an incompetent wishy-washy. Well, at least that's my oppinion
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[Kohaku]

The newest info is that the Palestine wanted Barghouti better as president than Abbas. But Barghouti is still in the Israel jail (he's punished a lifetime in jail) so there's nothing they could do
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