| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Lord Rengo
The Magus' Army
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Post Count: 729
Location: Pale Plains
33445 Potch
200 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
| Well it's not so much difficulty. The Georg ending is available no matter what. You have to do something extra to get the option to stay. It's more difficult, in a sense. If I'm not mistaken, the Georg ending the ending you get if you don't collect the 108 stars. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ujitsuna
Red Shoes Dance
Joined: 24 May 2006
Post Count: 4823
Location: Pale Plains
936547 Potch
12000 Soldiers
675 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leb wrote: |
| Hugo was born to take that kind of position. All the other Suikoden heroes were not. |
Does that mean we should disregard him? No I don't think it does, if he takes the position, he takes the position.
| Leb wrote: |
| Karaya chieftain is nowhere near being on the same level as Queen's Knight Commander. Karaya is simply one tribe out of many, and only holds power over its own people (the tribes are in a very loose coalition so that they can fight Zexen, and would not follow another clan's orders). |
It's still a position of power, considering how close the Karayans are with lets say the Lizard clan. It wouldn't be ridiculous for the Karayans to persuade the Lizards into a war of some sort.
| Leb wrote: |
| Besides, there are way too many inconsitencies with Suikoden III compared to the rest of the series. There's no clear hero, no nation undergoes any significant changes, and the Tenkai is not the leader of the army. Suikoden V follows every other pattern that its non-Suikoden III predecessors have established, so I'm inclined to believe that this is no exception. |
Still though, it's in the novel, and thats what the community is regarding as canon, I think it isn't an exception based on the fact that theres not enough evidence to prove otherwise, it may be the "different" Suikoden, but it's still a Suikoden and is canon (if we use the novel). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leb
Pizza Toppings
Joined: 16 May 2004
Post Count: 4233
Location: Razril
497133 Potch
936 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| You're still not making a case for why we should forget about all the same patterns it shares with its traditional predecessors and just jump on board with the misfit game that has a vaguely similar ending and no real correlation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Layfield
Last Literature D-Line
Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have to be honest, boss, I find it makes more sense than "All the other examples are like this, except the one that's not but that doesn't count because it doesn't match, therefore they all match. Except the one that doesn't, but it doesn't count." It's a bit of a circular argument.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leb
Pizza Toppings
Joined: 16 May 2004
Post Count: 4233
Location: Razril
497133 Potch
936 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I'm not saying it doesn't count because it doesn't match. Okay, I'm sorta saying that, but I'm saying that it doesn't count because it's this one weird game that broke away from almost everything Suikoden-like with its heroes, and Konami hasn't come up with anything even remotely similar to it since. If they don't make any effort to borrow or copy elements from Suikoden III, you can't say that Suikoden III is proof that it's the logical conclusion. It's a conceivable one, but not suddenly the logical one.
To have your entire argument hinge on that one game's ending for one of its leads is a little silly and inadequate for a debate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rainrir
Landsknecht
Joined: 06 May 2006
Post Count: 251
Location: Negative Reality
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I am kinda lost on what is this debate about but I will throw in my 2 bits worth of opinion...
Logically speaking, just because event A follows event B in a certain scenario does NOT always imply that event B must precede event B.
Yes, the correlation can be commonly reoccuring(S1, S2, S4, The Gaidens and even Rhapsodia) but that does not mean it MUST happen as such in other Suikoden games (S5). Hence, saying that S5 MUST happen that way because the other games give it an established pattern is a kind of logical fallacy.
Its like saying:
1)The streets are wet because it is raining.
2) The streets are wet now
3) Therefore it is raining now.
Can you see what's wrong with that? Similarly,
1) Silent Tenaki's* leave positions of power after getting the 108 stars ending before.
2) Silent TEnkai* gets the 108 stars ending in S5
3) Therefore Silent Tenkai* in S5 leaves
*I used the term "Silent Tenkai" because S1, S2 and S4 all had Silent Tenkais and ALL leave after the 108 stars ending.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------
Logic aside, I am tilting towards the ending which the Prince stays in Falaena.
Well...I support the stay ending because...the theme of S5 is FAMILY. I believe that majority of the people who played S5 agrees with me on that.
Given that the importance and value of a family is a point that was constantly raised by the events of the game, I find it weird if the Prince would just leave Lym by herself after the dust settles. It would be inconsistant with the theme of the game, not to mention his character.
YES, despite what people say, the Silent Hero DOES have a character this thime round....
If you need me to elaborate on the "Family" Theme more....then I will...but the post is long enough already.. heh. My experience tells me the longer the post the less likely your fellow debaters will bother to read them.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leb
Pizza Toppings
Joined: 16 May 2004
Post Count: 4233
Location: Razril
497133 Potch
936 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm using the argument to discredit the Hugo theory; not to prove why Hero 5 leaving must be the correct ending. I gave my reasons for why I feel it would be the canon ending, and all subsequent posts were sparked by the first counter-point (which I don't believe is a point at all, but that's beside the point).
However, I feel the need to argue that there is nothing out of character if you don't like Lymsleia. They emphasized during the game's development that Hero 5 would be more of an avatar of the player than in previous games, so I don't see anything wrong with leaving. Do I believe the Prince is going to be cruel and uncaring in the novel? No, that'd be too out of the ordinary (and too ridiculously awesome of Konami). But the past heroes have, for whatever reason, felt the need to leave behind their friends and go on their journeys of self-discovery or whatever the hell they do out there.
Also, your logic example's conclusion isn't flawed at all.
| Quote: |
1)The streets are wet because it is raining.
2) The streets are wet now
3) Therefore it is raining now. |
We can logically and correctly conclude that it is raining now because line one clearly states in present-tense that it is raining. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rainrir
Landsknecht
Joined: 06 May 2006
Post Count: 251
Location: Negative Reality
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nope, it is a logical fallacy because 3 is an deduction and NOT an observation. It implies that in all cases A then B = B therefore A. Playing around with tenses is always tricky.
Perhaps I misrepresented my exmple. I am trying to tell you that example 1 is an observation made prior and is a sensible everyday observation. 1 has infact two observations in it a) That the streets is wet and b) its is raining.
Observation 2 is a LATER observation...that is why I added a "NOW" into that sentence. 3 is NOT an observation, 3 is a deduction from observation 2 with reference to observation 1.
In any case, deduction 3 can be completely WRONG. Becaise the street can be wet because it is currently being washed, it can be wet because a flash flood occured, it can even be wet because some trucker overturned his truck and wet the street with Coka Cola.
This is to show you that just because there was a trend in the previous suikodens for Tenkais to leave on their magical journey..DOES NOT mean that the Tenkai in S5 would do so as welll. Since whether or not he leaves for his magical journey is NOT an observed fact but deduction based on previous experiences...which might not even be related to the current experience.
| Quote: |
But the past heroes have, for whatever reason, felt the need to leave behind their friends and go on their journeys of self-discovery or whatever the hell they do out there.
|
You mention it was to discredit the Hugo theory before this line...but if you do not think that the leaving choice is more plausible then why did you include this line? It sounds like you are appealing to tradition to assert that H5 leaves.
Furthermore, you forgot WHY the Heroes of the previous Suikodens left. Tir and Lazlo left because of the cursed runes they bear. Riou, Jowy and Nanami left because the political problem of leaving the King of Higland alive and living somewhere in the Dunan region.
It is clear that Tir doesn't WANT to leave his friends...as evidence by his (relatively) heaps and heaps of talking when you bring Kasumi to him. He cannot be close to the people he loves because he wants to protect them. That is why he essentially placed himself in solitary confinement.
Similarly, Lazlo leaves because he is the only one in the world which can hold on to the rune infinately. He becomes immortal and the rune no longer drains his life. That effectively nullifies the curse of RoP. However, he can still be killed by unnatural means. If he dies and someone else inherits the rune....then the whole tradgey of the RoP repeats. This is the reason why he makes everyone think he's dead and hides himself.
Riou, Nanami and Jowy left because the complications that can arise with the King of Highland still alive after the fall of Highland Kingdom. There is a reason why in the past royal families are exercuted together...it is to prevent loyalists from using surviving family members as a basis for a rebel movement.
Similarly, that is why Jowy sent Julia and Pilika far away to Harmonia (which wasn't too successful apparently...looking at the Harmonia-sponsored High East Rebellion). This is also the reason why Riou and Nanami choose to wander the world and leave the nation they built with Jowy. His presence and survival in the Dunan Region is too dangerous to allow them to live a life the 3 of them wanted....a life together.
Hero 5 though...lacks any of that kind of reason to leave...and the fact is that his love for his family (which might or might not include his sister) should ultimately make him stay and preserve the legacy of his parents (whom we all know that he loved very deepy). Even if he does not care for his sister, I do think that he went to those lenghts to protect what his father and mother gave their lives to protect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ujitsuna
Red Shoes Dance
Joined: 24 May 2006
Post Count: 4823
Location: Pale Plains
936547 Potch
12000 Soldiers
675 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leb wrote: |
| You're still not making a case for why we should forget about all the same patterns it shares with its traditional predecessors and just jump on board with the misfit game that has a vaguely similar ending and no real correlation. |
I'd also like to state that Lazlo remains in his home nation after the war. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leb
Pizza Toppings
Joined: 16 May 2004
Post Count: 4233
Location: Razril
497133 Potch
936 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But does not return to his home, nor does he take a position in the Federation government. He may have even turned down the presidency in one of the publications (I don't believe it's ever brought up in the game itself).
And it has come to a point where arguing my side will take more time than I'm willing give up, so I will simply withdraw. You all should know my position. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cupil
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Post Count: 27
Location: Amur
68022 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The only thing you've used to support your point thus far was tradition, even then that was disproven with Thomas and Lazlo.
Also I can argue on how much the 108 stars Georg ending doesn't make sense.
1.Why exactly was everyone (barring Hazuki and Zerase among others) there to say goodbye to him? Why couldn't they have already said their goodbyes before the castle got submerged?
2.Why aren't Lyon and the Prince wearing their wanderer's outfits? Not a very good idea considering the amount of fame he no doubt got after winning back Sol Falena.
3.The choice they give you. When you are given a choice between the two endings, this is what you are given for the Georg ending.
"None in particular" It doesn't say I want to see the world. It just says "meh" None in particular doesn't seem like the requirements for a canonical ending to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ujitsuna
Red Shoes Dance
Joined: 24 May 2006
Post Count: 4823
Location: Pale Plains
936547 Potch
12000 Soldiers
675 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leb wrote: |
| But does not return to his home, nor does he take a position in the Federation government. He may have even turned down the presidency in one of the publications (I don't believe it's ever brought up in the game itself). |
Basically you're trying to say that the Queen's Knight ending is impossible because of past endings, while I'm saying it's entirely possible because of Suikoden III and to a much lesser extent Suikoden IV. Until the novel comes out we'll never convince each other to think otherwise, but I still retain that the "best" ending will be the one featured in the novel. You don't exactly have an obligation to post here, so thats fine, but I guess we'll see who was right soon enough.
Last edited by Ujitsuna on Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leb
Pizza Toppings
Joined: 16 May 2004
Post Count: 4233
Location: Razril
497133 Potch
936 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| You guys need to stop posting in such a way that expects a response. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Suikofreak
Dragon
Joined: 17 May 2006
Post Count: 18
Location: Illionis
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In Suikoden IV the hero stays in the country he just retires from the position of commander. Because you can later recruit him in Tactics in the isalnd nations.
Besides that i think the ending where the prince stays is the canonical ending. Why? because that is the ending I like the best and also he wouldn't just leave the newly devolping country would he.
_________________
War, what is this war? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rainrir
Landsknecht
Joined: 06 May 2006
Post Count: 251
Location: Negative Reality
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
So in the end...this debate comes down to a "I believe in this" and "You believe in that" conclusion...Well I guess we'll only know after the official novel or manga comes out...
Again I killed the topic...I seem to do it whenever I post on here..heh heh
_________________
Avatars are overrated! I bet I AM THE ONLY ONE WITHOUT ONE!!!! BEAT THAT! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
