Suikoden Urgent and Illusional Knowledge Omniscient Xperience

Suikox Home | The Speculation Shelter | Tablet of Stars | Suikoden Timeline | Suikoden Geography |Legacies


  [ View Profile | Edit Profile | Nation System | Members | Groups | Search | Register | Check PMs | Log in | FAQ ]

Zodiac Sword / Ted's Village
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Backstory, History & Plot Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
El Regrs




Joined: 13 May 2004
Post Count: 375
Location: Somewhere Over The Rainbow
15501 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wes wrote:

Viktor returned to North Window, fought Neclord and was left for dead, but apparently had a Sacrificial "Jizzo" that Daisy gave him prior to the attack which saved his life. He could've been referring to Warrior's Village, or more likely North Window - the first encounter.


My only thing with this is that Neclord says he doesn't remember North Window (or Northwind, I guess, as it was translated there).

Yes, I know, this is contradicted by the fact that he's chillin' there three years later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, perhaps getting his ass handed to him to by Viktor, who was yelling about the place, caused him to jog his memory. After all, it seems that was the first real defeat in battle he ever had, even if his doopleganger secret meant he wasn't killed.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Vertius

The Runic Fletchers


Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Post Count: 4747
Location: Ceresfjellet
629970 Potch
1000 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My memory is hazy about that scene, but didn't Neclord recognise Viktor when in the "past", in the Village of the Hidden Rune? (What kind of name is that, anyway? If you name your village after a Rune you're meant to be hiding, it's not exactly secret. Even Pesmerga would have been able to find it!)

In my opinion, it seems that Suikoden I was very confused. Konami have made several excuses since then to cover up some of what they did, but such scenes show how undeveloped the World was.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Scarlet Assassin

Disciples of Death


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Post Count: 5509
Location: Xasta Grassland
331436 Potch
0 Soldiers
2442517 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I always took Neclord's mention of Viktor to mean that he recognized the people who had tried to harass him at the Warrior's village. Gameplay wise it was a couple days before the confrontation at the castle so it would still be fresh in his mind. The runes still seem like gameplay aspects to me, and given the fact that viki is given the power to travel through time by some means, it would seem that there's some sort of rune giving her that ability. That evidence coupled with (as John said) the fact that true runes have been known to present the past to people leads me to believe that the Night Rune was just showing the group the past. Many other runes have been known to do this, in fact, several references are made in Suikoden 3 that bearers are haunted by the memories of the rune, and in suikoden 4 we are privvy to the interaction between lazlo and his rune's memories. As it is, I'm not buying the time travel.
_________________

Chief of Beat-em-up Honeys Division, Devoted Protector of Lady Tifa Lockhart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ujitsuna

Red Shoes Dance


Joined: 24 May 2006
Post Count: 4823
Location: Pale Plains
936547 Potch
12000 Soldiers
675 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield wrote:
Of course, don't think any of you managed to change my view. I had to dig for that myself.


My months here have not been wasted. Excellent, I am a new man today.

The True Fire and Wind runes have given visions to their hosts of the past and/or future, they've never actually travelled into the past to meet or interact with anyone like in Suikoden I, but I still think this is just imagery the Night Rune uses. Why should this make the Night Rune's any different though?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Vertius

The Runic Fletchers


Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Post Count: 4747
Location: Ceresfjellet
629970 Potch
1000 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Honestly, I don't think there is any correct, flawless answer to this question. Most attempts to answer it is solely speculation.

Scarlet Assassin wrote:
I always took Neclord's mention of Viktor to mean that he recognized the people who had tried to harass him at the Warrior's village. Gameplay wise it was a couple days before the confrontation at the castle so it would still be fresh in his mind.


Yeah... Really, though, it's probably just an error on the game-maker's part. More-than-likely, Neclord was referencing to Tir's group attacking him in the Warrior's Village, protecting Tengaar in the present, but someone in the process of making the game made the mistake of not noticing Neclord was in the "past"...

The game hints in many places that it was time travel, such as when you try to bring Ted back with you. The World was obviously not fully realised at this point, so mistakes were quite plainly made. This is probably one of them...
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Earthquake923

SB90's Mechanized Monsters


Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Post Count: 1982
Location: Terana Plains
179201 Potch
0 Soldiers
778121 Nation Points

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well considering the first Neclord you kill isn't the original, no one knows who was seen when.
_________________
If anybody asks about the avatar, I did it for Jess.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
KoRnholio




Joined: 23 May 2004
Post Count: 16777215
Location: Scarlet Moon Empire
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that the teleportation event in Suikoden I happens in the Cave of the Past. The cave is of course guarded by the head of Qlon Temple, which was built before recorded history. The mystique of the area just screams to me that its a power of the cave, not the rune.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ah, but then why did the Star Dragon Sword seemingly initiate what happened? Or at the least seemingly take credit for it?
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
KoRnholio




Joined: 23 May 2004
Post Count: 16777215
Location: Scarlet Moon Empire
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

From presumably Blue Moon's (although it sounds like Matt620's writing) article on the Star Dragon Sword:

Quote:
How long the Star Dragon Sword had resided in the Cave of the Past is unknown but it was long enough for the fact to descend into folklore.


Quote:
In the aforementioned cave the sword encountered Viktor, Tir and his party and threw them three-hundred years into the past, (since such actions have not been repeated it may have been that the sword was drawing on the power of the Cave of the Past for this feat.)


Just seems that being a true rune and residing in the Cave for eons, it gained some kind of affinity with it. In that sense it is almost like a power of the sword/rune, but not really.

Non-Serious: If it DID have the power to teleport people whenever it pleased, wouldn't it have done that to Viktor, say, right after Neclord was defeated (and its mission was accomplished and it had no use for him)? :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John Layfield

Last Literature D-Line


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Post Count: 6231
Location: Saint Dragon
509933 Potch
9300 Soldiers
3525 Nation Points

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmm, well, the first bit is true. The sword was known as a legend by both Fukien and Zorak.

The second, whether it was Sars or Matt620, has the qualifier 'may' implanted in its explanation. Which would suggest that it's just as much a theory as anything else proposed here.

Although, that said, it's an interesting one, given the cave's name and all.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rainrir

Landsknecht


Joined: 06 May 2006
Post Count: 251
Location: Negative Reality
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was about to attribute all this to creative oversight since S1 was supposed to be a standalone game. Given that most of the Suiko-verse and anything after S1 was not even concieved back then, it is really not fair to expect that the entire narrative (from S1-S5) was consistant with itself.

S1 keeps reminding us that the True Runes are essentially gods. While they govern various aspects of nature individually, that does not mean that they cannot do stuff that is "universal" to every TR esepcially if a rune governing that aspect does not exist. Take for example, if there was a TR that governed destruction..does that mean that ALL other TRs cannot be destructive?

In this case, it would be too much of a strench to assume that in the first Suikoden...ALL True Runes have god-like powers, and since no "True Rune of Time" seem to exist(yet?)...Could it be that the ability to manipulate time is a common quality that all TR share? At least that was the case when Murayama conceived the suikoverse back THEN?

That is ONE possibility....On the other hand...

Given that the Cave of the Past was there BEFORE recorded history, I have some grounds to believe that the Cave was built?/constructed?/formed? with the specific purpose to house the Night Rune. In that case, the Cave of the Past's power IS directly due to the influence of the Night Rune and NOT because it is special in itself.

Furthermore, the moniker Cave of the Past....doesn't mean that the cave can transport you to the past..it might just mean that the cave can SHOW you what happened in the past. Of course, we have to explain a few things though...

1) The interactivity of the "past recording" (like picking up items etc.)
2) How can Ted interact with the party?
3) How on earth did Yuber spot them.

We can explain 1 away by saying it was implimented as a game mechanic, however 2 and 3 are more problematic...which brings me to...

Firstly, lets deal with 2...One of the things I do NOT understand is that way is the thingmajig that SDS did on the party was called a curse.....I mean...gee....a Curse is supposed to be something..bad right? Instead the party gets more insight to the past as a result of the curse...with no apparent physical ill effects.

Which lead me to believe that the Curse of the SDS is in effect some kind of emotional assault which uses past reality as a template. Did I lose you guys somewhere? That means the sword shows its target a tragic event of a loved one's life, and deliberately gives the false impression that he/she can change the past(the choice to take the young Ted with you). However, at the end, its just a illusion...I think that kind of escalation and immediate extinguishing of hope can drive people literally mad.

That is the REAL danger of looking for the SDS in the cave of the past and the reason why it is called the "cave of the past"

As for 3....I am going to take a leap at a pretty wild theory. Given that Yuber is a timeless and powerful entity that has powers that approach onmipresence (think Sauron in LoTR). It could be that any invocation of his name or image would alert him of your presence? Traditionally, the names of Judo-Christian Demons should not be uttered at all..for fear that such an utterance would literally draw the attention of those entities and cause direct harm to the speaker.

Although Yuber was part of the past that the SDS conjured up to attack Tir emotionally, the very presence of his image and name in the illusion alerts the REAL Yuber to manifest in the illusion world itself...allowing him to actually cause physical harm to the party in the illusion past?

I am not sure if anyone can understand me....this is just my 2 cents..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zaj I mean Mike

I just sell weapons


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Post Count: 371

500 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The power the Zodiac sword used and the SoulEater meashed and you saw/interacted with the past. A little like when the SoulEater rejected Windy the soul and past of the rune.

There simple, simple is the answer!
_________________
Three Billion
Chinese
Can't Be Wrong

CLERKS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KoRnholio




Joined: 23 May 2004
Post Count: 16777215
Location: Scarlet Moon Empire
0 Potch
0 Soldiers
0 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

THat's an interesting theory as well (Cave of Past, and by association, Qlon Temple itself, existing just to house the Night Rune).

Luckily, the Night Rune is vaguely referenced in Suikoden V - not that it gave us much more information, but it seems they haven't given up on elaborating on the Rune.

Perhaps if we saw a confused Edge in Suikoden IV, our questions would have been answered :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Scarlet Assassin

Disciples of Death


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Post Count: 5509
Location: Xasta Grassland
331436 Potch
0 Soldiers
2442517 Nation Points

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

When did Korn get back?

Aside from that, it appears as though it was the cave influencing the event and not the sword. I had forgotten that it was the cave of the past, hence why I overlooked that possibility. But then it becomes the same argument about the cave, save for the fact that (as far as we know) the cave is not sentient, and thus can not choose to curse people. Rather it would seem that the cave itself is cursed to show intruders the past. I remain steadfast in my opinion that it was a hallucination though. The mechanics of time travel are simply too complex for me to sit and argue them, but with how it appears in the game, I see the event as a hallucination, not a time travelling phenomenon.
_________________

Chief of Beat-em-up Honeys Division, Devoted Protector of Lady Tifa Lockhart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Backstory, History & Plot Discussion All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
suikox.com by: Vextor


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
  Username:    Password:      Remember me