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Zodiac Sword / Ted's Village
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Cedric

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Zodiac Sword / Ted's Village Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Did the curse of the Zodiac Sword really put everyone in the past? Or was this some sort of realistic flashback?

Because unless this game believes in alternate realities when you time travel, then Ted should have remembered Tir and party when this happened. Unless he has a bad memory, which I doubt because he called Windy "a witch" immediately after seeing her. But then how can one explain taking the Boar and Champion Runes being brought back into the present.

And then it also makes me wonder if the Zodiac Sword, or the Night Rune in particular has the powers to travel through time. It didn't seem like the sword had much trouble cursing the party.
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Scarlet Assassin

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It seems to me that it was some sort of enchantment the Zodiac sword used to show everyone what had happened. Most likely it was a very realistic flashback sort of deal because travelling through time does seem a bit strange for the Night Rune. As far as we've seen, Viki is the only person with the ability to travel through time, and that's only due to her rune. Two runes having the same power would cause an imbalance as each rune is supposed to govern over seperate parts of reality and existence. Given those facts it seems most likely that the Zodiac sword created the scenario for the party, not that he actually sent them through time.
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AA

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well it has never been stated that it is the Blinking rune that gives Viki the ability to time travel, since if you look anyone else who has the rune equipped cannot time travel.

The theory that it is just a flashback falls down when you interact with Ted and as Ced said you can take the Boar and the Champion Rune back to the present, this to me makes me think it was more than just an interactive flashback.

As for Ted not remembering, well it was a long time between the burning of Ted's village and him meeting Tir for the second time, could you remember someone's face for 400 years? With Windy, didn't she hunt him down around the world, it makes sense for him to know what she looks like.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I always assumed with Viki, that she just managed to screw up THAT badly.

The situation itself is a bit hard to explain. It's been a while, but I can't seem to remember/figure out just what the Star Dragon Sword had to do with Windy and Ted to begin with. I guess that means we will be seeing more of them... *glares at Konami*)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

However, AA, you would think that after living with Tir and Teo for so long, Ted would remember Tir's face. Unless, you want to argue that he is so attached to Tir because he saw him in his childhood and remembered that, in which case it becomes quite circular.

I'm more inclined to believe that The Zodiac sword created some sort of hallucination for them and the champion and boar runes were just sort of gameplay aspects that weren't tailored to the situation.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Until a rune is confirmed to govern time, I'd have to give the nod to it being actual time travel as it's simply the most elementary theory that requires the least digging to explain other issues, such as, as mentioned, bringing items from the past to the present.

Maybe I just have a really bad, to the point of having no, memory but I can't clearly remember the faces of people I knew as a ten year old child eleven years ago so I can't imagine Ted remembering the face of a person whose name he never knew from a short-lived encounter 300 years in the past with almost three centuries following that with no contact or reminder of them.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think it's more to do with the fact of us mixing gameplay elements with the storyline, the Boar and Champion runes to me, are part of this gameplay aspect. Just items that the game has thrown in for players looking around the village a bit. I think instead of time travel, the Night Rune picked out this section in time, and played it out so Tir and company could witness it "inside" the Night Rune if you want to put it like that.

Since time travel is never mentioned in conjunction with the Night Rune, I'd say it was just part of the "curse" the rune placed on the player. If however, this reality is true, then such a massive event in history in a person's memory is going to have some degree of imagery in the person's mind, maybe it's just me.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

An easy rebuttal is that "picking out sections of time and allowing people to witness them inside a rune" is never mentioned in conjunction with the Night Rune, Suikoden or my back hair. Which really needs a shave.

Why complicate easy answers with no evidence to surmise anything other than the easy answer.

These are the pure, unbiased, facts.

- Tir and party encountered the Star Dragon Sword, a.k.a the Rune of the Night.
- The Rune of the Night performed some sort of spell or used some sort of power, that engulfed the party.
- The party reappeared in, so far as we can see, a small village. The events in the village set the time as approx. 300 years prior to the 'present' as they see it.
- Witnessing the destruction of the village and narrowly escaping apparent demise at the hands of Yuber, the group returned to the present.

I don't really like doing it, but I'm really calling Occam's Razor on this one. Nothing in what happened suggests anything other than basic time travel.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah it's not like Ted can remember the name of a True Rune hunting witch out to kill him or anything. If he does remember the characters he doesn't let on. Possibly for his own safety.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have a question that might have some effect on the whole "more than an interactive flashback" thing.

At Neclord's castle, when Neclord mentions that he remembers seeing Viktor at some village, was he referring to the Village of the Hidden Rune or the Warriors Village?
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AA

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That is a very good point.

As i remember it Victor was away form North Window when Neclord attacked it, so the two never met there, by the time Victor got back everyone was dead and Neclord was gone.

So this might mean that Neclord remembers Victor from the Village of the Hidden Rune (You know if your going to hide a rune don't name your village that, mane it "there ain't no runes here").
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Zodiac Sword / Ted's Village Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ced The Lad wrote:
Did the curse of the Zodiac Sword really put everyone in the past? Or was this some sort of realistic flashback?

Because unless this game believes in alternate realities when you time travel, then Ted should have remembered Tir and party when this happened.


The game evidence when I played suggests it was a legit travel through time. When Windy presents Ted at Seek Valley (I believe that's where it was, it's been a while since I played the game), Ted mentions the event and says how it was cruel (or words to that effect) for Tir to leave him alone like he did.

Like I said, my recollection of the finer details are hazy but I know Ted mentioned all of this just before he commanded the Soul Eater to take his soul.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: Zodiac Sword / Ted's Village Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Elc wrote:

The game evidence when I played suggests it was a legit travel through time. When Windy presents Ted at Seek Valley (I believe that's where it was, it's been a while since I played the game), Ted mentions the event and says how it was cruel (or words to that effect) for Tir to leave him alone like he did.

Like I said, my recollection of the finer details are hazy but I know Ted mentioned all of this just before he commanded the Soul Eater to take his soul.


I always thought that speach Ted gave was prior to him asking for the rune back, which would indicate that Ted was referrencing the beginning of the game where Tir, Cleo and Gremio left Ted after he gave Tir the Soul Eater. As in 'it was cruel of you to leave me to be taken back to windy and used as a puppet' since after that he demands the rune back i believe, which then prompts the whole 'you killed your father, youd strike down your friend, blah di blah blah, wtf why did i get pwnd, curse you!' by Windy.

Ted not remembering much could really be because as a child he tried to conscioucly block out the horrific events which happened. (as if he didnt youd have to wonder if ted would have ended up as a complete screwball of a person, since it was quite the traumatic experience)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Since we have no evidence of it being time travel, I think that it indicates that it's more likely to be an "alternate reality", maybe if we found some dialogue thats been translated properly and everythings concrete, then I'd accept that no problem. It's just at the moment I think it's wrong to assume it's time travel just because thats the simplest explanation.

AA wrote:
As i remember it Victor was away form North Window when Neclord attacked it, so the two never met there, by the time Victor got back everyone was dead and Neclord was gone.

So this might mean that Neclord remembers Victor from the Village of the Hidden Rune (You know if your going to hide a rune don't name your village that, mane it "there ain't no runes here").


Viktor returned to North Window, fought Neclord and was left for dead, but apparently had a Sacrificial "Jizzo" that Daisy gave him prior to the attack which saved his life. He could've been referring to Warrior's Village, or more likely North Window - the first encounter.

Elc wrote:
The game evidence when I played suggests it was a legit travel through time. When Windy presents Ted at Seek Valley (I believe that's where it was, it's been a while since I played the game), Ted mentions the event and says how it was cruel (or words to that effect) for Tir to leave him alone like he did.

Like I said, my recollection of the finer details are hazy but I know Ted mentioned all of this just before he commanded the Soul Eater to take his soul.


Well when you attempt to take Ted into the future with you, you still see this dialogue at Seek Valley, indicating that Ted is referring to Gregminster and not The Village of the Hidden Rune. When you try to take Ted with you, he just vanishes like hes not real, if it were real time travel, wouldn't the Night Rune be able to bring him into the present? Arguing time paradoxes and things like that support the theory that the Night Rune does not possess time travel abilities.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, I'm shifting my view. I will not say, categorically, that the Rune of the Night does NOT have the ability to make people travel through time.

I've decided this because there's one piece of evidence in a different game, that everyone has seemingly ignored.

Suikoden III. The True Rune of the Flame Champion, whomever it may be in your file, allows the player to view what is stated to be an illusion or vision of the future, with no actual time travel involved, while still being able to interact and, indeed, engage in battle in the illusion.

Of course, don't think any of you managed to change my view. I had to dig for that myself.
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