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What would you do?
Break chains
41%
 41%  [ 7 ]
Stay and never question
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Hesitate, but break chains
41%
 41%  [ 7 ]
Break chains but back out
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Hesitate and never break chains
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 17

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Seakida




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:57 pm    Post subject: Philosophy Question Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If you ever heard of The Allegory of The Cave, the you know what I am talking about, for those of you who don't

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/seakida/platoscave.gif

To get to the outside "Ascent to Sunlight" you have to cross the break your chains, cross the path way, and run through the fire.
The showmen will cast their shadow puppets on the wall.
You can not talk, and are completely uneducated.

Now if you are a "prisoner" what would you do?
I my self would break my chains eventually, but would hesitate to do so.
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Agahnim

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Obviously, its difficult to put yourself in that situation.

And in the situation, if you were completely uneducated, how would you know how to actually break free of the chains? And why would you feel any need to, since as far as you know, what you are seeing is life itself; theres nothing more to it.

The concept of the allegory of the cave is a difficult one to explain. The main idea behind it is that the people in the chains only know what they see in front of them; when they see the shadow of a book, they are told "this is a book", and don't know any better. This concept was devised by Plato as a comparison to his Theory of Forms, wherein the general terms of our language are not the "names" of the physical objects that we see. To Plato, the chair I am sitting on at this moment is not THE chair, it merely shares a degree of "chairness" to a chair in the perfect world of forms. To Plato, they are actually names of things that we cannot see or comprehend, things that we can only grasp with the mind.

So, of course you would want to leave the chains, and be able to see the "real" objects, not just the shadows projected onto the walls.

GD
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Seakida




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's kind of like the Media and our education, we are told that 1+1 will always equal 2. But the fact of breaking the chains is simply asking the question "Why?". I am very content on saying 1+1=2 because it just does. But then you got things like MTV telling you to look a way, people who watch MTV and sitcoms often tend to be the "prisoners" who would never ask about their life. People who get upsessed about video games might be the same people, very ill sighted.
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Inko

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would fell to contained and break out of the chains. I would also do this just to see what would happen.
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Timbo

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think I would break the chains, but eventually return. I see it incredibly similar to "The Matrix" when Cipher wished to return. His logic for returning seemed pretty flawless to me. If 'Truth" doesn't change anything, doesn't make me feel happy, doen't make anybody feel fulfilled and doesn't do anything, what's the point of a search for 'truth'?

I'd break away to see if there really was a difference, but I doubt there would be. Because it would have to completely change how humans reason, how humans perceive and human how humans react.

If this did happen, I don't think I would be able to even answer the question from a normal human standpoint because everything I would use would be a normal human standpoint and not this advanced human standpoint.
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Solitude

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I myself would hesitate but break chains. Even the most uneducated person knows fear and knows something of cause and effect. This fear would lead to hesitation. However the wise might deduct the consequences and choose not to break chains. The uneducated would not be able to fully grasp the consequences of their action and would end up breaking chains.
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Cedric

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I'm under the impression that no matter how uneducated we are, we can, at the very, least break the chains. So that much is not in debate, but the rest of the question is.

Now I'm going to compare the prisoner to all of us as babies. Though we weren't technically prisoners, we were still restricted in our space and movement. For our good, our parents watched over us as kids and made sure we stayed out of trouble.

But one way or another, subconsciously, we decided to explore our surroundings. So there we are crawling around to explore the "world" As we saw it. It didn't take that long for us to feel the need to see what's out there and look for things the world can offer us.

Despite the fact that I would be a prisoner, I would eventually get tired of my current surroundings and attempt to break the chains after hesitation. I would like to know what the outside world has to offer. It's an impulse we all have inside of all humans that makes us want to take risks.

A similar question was asked to a group of people. Basically, they were asked if they would rather:

1. Earn $30,000 doing absolutely nothing instead of eating, sleeping, and staying in the house for the rest of their natural life.

2. Earn much more, but you must work for it. At the same time, you can have leisurely experiences here and there, but your life will be filled with work and responsibility.

Most picked option 2 because no one could imagine what life would be like in the same surroundings every single day. It's the same concept here. Eventually, you will get tired and want some kind of change. It's worth any amount of risk to explore the unknown. It draws us and fascinates us. We can't ignore it even if we tried.
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Timbo

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think that analogy follows all that well Ced the Lad. The allegory of the cave goes with Plato's views on the theory of forms, not with experiencing change. The shadows of the cave are seeing the world, the whole world and every view of it. These are false ones. You are taking one world view and making it the choice that is being used.
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Cedric

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

After doing research on the subject, you're right. Sorry, this is the first time I ever heard of the subjct, so I was misguided by the lack of an explanation.
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Gustav Pendragon




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmm, is anyone familiar with Hume's refutation of causal reasoning?
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Queen

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Uneducated or not, I would break my chains. I don't like to be tied to any one place, physically or mentally.
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Marnix




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Most people would break the chain eventually. It woould take either a person without care to leave the chains as they were or a person who is content not to. But as it is human nature to mostly consume ore then we need and to always be searching for more, in a constant state of restlesness, we would never stay in the chain as we would have to be content about it. As for hesistance, people might, but most likly just would be natural caution as most people in the world, or just everyone around me, are parinoid.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

weekendwarrior77 wrote:
Hmm, is anyone familiar with Hume's refutation of causal reasoning?


Yeah, studied David Hume a while back. How do you think his position relates to this problem? I kinda see how it can be related, but I want to hear your point.
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Shrew

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have a test on David Hume tomorrow.... bleeaaaagh I am tired and don't want study no more. Nor do I want to write in grammatically correct sentences. I don't really see how he works here, other than attacking the idea of true knowledge that Plato had.

Speaking of the cave, isn't the whole point that according to Plato we can only see a reflected world in a sense, like these shadows and echoes. We don't know the true forms, which do not exist on earth, but in their abstract happy true form world that only the spirit has access to. And so we try to get out of the cave where we see the sun, which is akin to the true form of "good" which then illuminates everything else. Then, as we now have true understanding of the world, it is our responsiblity to bring those still in the cave out of it and reveal the true knowledge to them.

Or something. I'm really tired. College papers burn my mind.
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Alseid

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, if i recall correctly, an important point of the allegory is that the prisioners never know they're imprisioned. They've always had the chains, so that's all they've ever known. No one breaks free, but one may find oneself released by unknown circumstances. The chains being our senses, the shadows being the reality we percieve, and the "true things" being a reality our senses can't percieve.
So, according to it, not even knowing i'm chained, i would never break the chains or question the shadows.

Also, Shrew, i recall that, when the prisioners saw the true light, the did not become concious of the truth, but instead they became insane, their senses being overwhelmed by truth.
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