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Harmonia's Legacy: Will it live up to its hype?
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Cedric

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Harmonia's Legacy: Will it live up to its hype? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Suikoden's life has now extended to 5 games, three side stories, and a card game. In a sense, that puts it up there as one of the longest running series up to date. But one thing has remained constant throughout the series' run. We have never really seen the full capacity of Harmonia.

We had a taste of what we can expect from the superpower thanks to Suikoden 3. We know that they are a nation willing to go all out to achieve their goals. They even resorted to sending a majority of their entire army to take down the Grassland/Zexen forces. That says a lot about their strength. Although, it's tough to say if Harmonia will continue to go this route, because Murayama's departure complicates things.

Despite that, eventually, they will have to see Harmonia someday. If the series starts to lose its fan base for whatever reason, they will have to venture into Harmonia. That situation doesn't even need to happen. They could decide to visit Harmonia if they decide to do it earlier (like say, if the fan base grows older to the point where they can't play as many games).

But the question remains, do you think Harmonia will live up to the mystique it has created for 10 years? We even have to consider the possibility that it may be longer if they decide to keep us away from Harmonia. They did manage to add 3 countries from Suikoden 5 alone. Add that to the Dukedom of Gaien and the Nameless Lands. We may not see Harmonia for quite some time.

Just like Yuber and Pesmerga, I'm anxious to see where developers decide to take Harmonia. An important staple of this series is not to be taken lightly. So we also have to wonder what ideas can be implemented to make Harmonia live up to its legacy? Any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think that someday they will make the Harmonia Legacy, but not really revealing about Hikusaak probably as they would probably save it for the last Suikoden or so :)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh, I don't think the Suikoden world is hurting for places to visit, considering in the last couple of games, we've gotten new information on two new continents. Honestly, they could make new nations for as long as the series lasts.

I think eventually they might have a Harmonian game; like Falena, Zexen, etc. it seems like a country we just get a few clues of in earlier games that'll be fleshed out at a later date. But I don't think that it's terrible important that they do; Harmonia actually might be more effective as an unseen superpower.

Think about it; is there any way it can lvie up to the hype? People have been building up expectations for a decade; I think no matter what Konami's answer is, a lot of people are going to be disappointed there Hyper Mega Cool Ultra Golden Theory wasn't proven to be correct.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Agreed. I don't think Harmonia will live up to the hype, because Harmonia has been talked about, hinted about and has has such a big but vague role in other suikodens. Any realistic presentation of it is bound to dissapoint at least a few people who expected Harmonia to be completely different. Regardless, I can't wait how Konami decides to present Harmonia to us when the time finally comes.

On a side note, I think most people were extremely impressed by Falena, because hardly anything was known about the country, so there were no false expectations that it didn't live up to... except maybe the Crimson Bird Clan.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be a suikoden in Harmonia or at least based about it. Even if it may be a game about the fall of harmonia or the return of Hikusaak. Nonetheless, it will come and I believe it will deliver. The fans have always craved for Harmonia and I am sure they will get it. It is said to be a great place, extremly big but great. I am sure that one way or another somehow Konami will be able to live up to the hype of Harmonia of course though, not many people seem to agree with me, but we will see when the game ( if it does...it will) come out about the game and then all the mysteries will be revealed, and we will see if the game lives up to the hype!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well Harmonia is a massive country, I mean massive, if they ever put a game in it then they would have to cut out large parts of the land due to the issues of how long it would take to make a country that big in-game. To be honest I don't think we'll see a Suikoden in Harmonia, it's too big, it's stable regardless of it's slavery system and it would completely kill the Suikoden plot.

I think what we've seen and will continue to see is armies from Harmonia marching on other nations and more characters being revealed as time goes by (Nash, Sasarai, Dios etc.) However this doesn't change the fact that Hikusaak's (or maybe just the bishops?) influence is growing gradually and they seem to understand something about the true runes that everyone else doesn't, or they just want the power at the very least.

Sophita wrote:
Think about it; is there any way it can lvie up to the hype? People have been building up expectations for a decade; I think no matter what Konami's answer is, a lot of people are going to be disappointed there Hyper Mega Cool Ultra Golden Theory wasn't proven to be correct.


...Mega Cool Ultra Golden Theory? You forgot the holy and the tooth part. :P As I see it though, I don't think theres alot of hype surrounding the country, above average yes, but people haven't really made any assumptions apart from comments like "omj sarasai's hair is so kewl."
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think Harmonia is living up to its hype anyway. That massive empire is a powder keg waiting to go BOOM!!! If it weren't because of the Circle Rune, the Harmonian theocratic empire would have disintegrated long ago. We haven't seen how big is Harmonia, but considering that there are many slaves in Harmonia, we could see some king of slave rebellion against Harmonian rule like in the movie Spartacus. Huge countries have proven hard to govern, as evidenced by the fall of the Soviet Union, so i see Harmonia's fate as such.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harmonia is not too large to be put into a video game, Wes. For crying out loud, entire planets have been covered in games, let alone a large country. My gesss is that Harmonia is filled with relatively large cities and Crystal Valley serves as the hub of its economy.

Will it live up to its hype? I don't know if we can properly answer that until a game actually come out in Harmonia. It all depends on what hype we try to put into it. If you're expecting the game to be the equivalent of an orgasm in CD form, then no, you'll probably be left dry. Questions will be answered but others will form and be left unanswered, as it always is with Suikoden.

One of the biggest presumptions is that Harmonia will be explored in the final chapter of the Suikoden series. Who said this will happen? Why do we all have it implanted in our brains that Harmonia will be the final hurrah? Why can't Suikoden VI be in Harmonia and then VII go back to Gaien or the Nagarea Theocracy? We place Harmonia on some sort of wonderful pedastal just because Suikoden II and III put them as enemies and we want to know more about them. They were barely an influence in Suikoden I's story and Suikoden IV and V had little to do with the nation. I think we can expect just as much from Harmonia as we can from Kanakan, Nameless Lands or New Armes. We just happen to know a little more about Harmonia than other unknown nations so we jump to conclusions.

Harmonia might not live up to all this hype, but really what hype are you all looking to match? All the questions we have are about Hikusaak (and all that surrounds him like Clones and the Circle rune) and the Howling Voice Guild. Aside from those two things we don't really know a whole lot and there's nothing to hype over. If we get the answers to those questions will it live up to the hype? Probably not because some questions that will be created in the course of the game will be left unanswered and those expecting so much will get displeased with it. Whereas I'll be content if they even tell us anything about Hikusaak or the Howling Voice Guild other than what we already know.

Will it live up to your guys hype? Maybe not. Will it live up to the hype I'd put into it, more than likely. It wouldn't be hard to answer the 2-3 questions I have about the country.

Many of you cite the way they treat the lower class of citizens as a major deterrant to the way the game could be set up, but I think the game designes will be able to find a way to incorporate it into the naton so that it doesn't become a huge issue. There's another nation that prior to the release of its game had a bad reputation for how it treats certain people and to be honest it was a trivial portion of the game's storyline; so I feel that this third class citizen thing in Harmonia isn't a cause for concern or even question.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Just like Mr.RC above there, it really depends on your own personal hype when it comes to Harmonia. Different people have different expectations out of Harmonia, and therefore, Harmonia can live up to its hype for some, but cannot for others.

Ced wrote:
But the question remains, do you think Harmonia will live up to the mystique it has created for 10 years? We even have to consider the possibility that it may be longer if they decide to keep us away from Harmonia.

It is a valid point that Konami could push Harmonia back even further. This could work both ways to me. It could even increase the hype if we're teased with more tidbits about Harmonia, but it could also lower the hype if Konami gave us something else to be desired more than Harmonia.

RC wrote:
Questions will be answered but others will form and be left unanswered, as it always is with Suikoden.

I guess it really depends on which Suikoden we're talking about here. If Harmonia were to be the location of the last Suikoden game, and if Konami explicitly stated that they planned to end the series there, then they should give enough closure to satisfy the fans. More questions would probably arise, but that's what happened to every game anyways. More questions left unanswered are unavoidable, but now the issue really becomes on whether they would give enough answers or not to the current questions that we have now.

It would be very disappointing if Suikoden series ended at Harmonia and we still haven't got a clue about Hikusaak. But if we learn about Hikusaak and then say for example he died in that game but had another clone ready, then we might wonder about what that clone could do. This would leave more question but we'd have enough answers to allow Harmonia to live up to its hype.

RC wrote:
Why do we all have it implanted in our brains that Harmonia will be the final hurrah?

I think it is the logical choice because Harmonia had been pretty much described as the powerhouse in Suikoden World. The one with the biggest army, the biggest nation, the strongest nation, and the one with the most mysteries. We have been teased a lot about what they are about, and it's human nature that we want to know. And when we found out, then there's nothing else that holds similar hype (at least for now).

Think about it this way, if you've been hearing stories on how delicious steak is, and you've finally got to eat one, you wouldn't really wonder how corn tastes like. You expect the steak to be your final meal just because it's *that* delicious. Just an example by the way, not saying that steak is the best food or whatnot. >.>

RC wrote:
Why can't Suikoden VI be in Harmonia and then VII go back to Gaien or the Nagarea Theocracy?

Well technically they can do it that way. But now the question becomes, could Gaien or that Theocracy (whatever that is, I haven't played Suikoden V, thank you very much, Sire) hold up the same interest as Harmonia did. To me, Konami pushed Harmonia back further and further so they could also milk the Suikoden series. If they've given us Harmonia, technically the location that most wanted, and if they don't deliver what we wanted, Konami could lose significant amount of Suikoden fan base.

Of course there's no stopping them to re-visit Harmonia again in the latter game, but players would already be disappointed. Unless the very next game is also in Harmonia, fans could already be lost.

RC wrote:
I think we can expect just as much from Harmonia as we can from Kanakan, Nameless Lands or New Armes. We just happen to know a little more about Harmonia than other unknown nations so we jump to conclusions.

I don't think we can expect as much from Harmonia as we can from Kanakan, Nameless Lands or New Armes. Your next sentence was the exact reason why we can't. We know a little more about Harmonia than other unknown nations.

Think about it this way, you want to go on a vacation, you're trying to decide where to go. You've heard a lot of good things about Hawaii, while you've heard nothing at all about say East Timor. Would you have the same expectation out of both? No, you wouldn't. You would want to know more about Hawaii instead because you want to see what's so good about that place, and therefore, have higher expectations.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RedCydranth wrote:
Harmonia is not too large to be put into a video game, Wes. For crying out loud, entire planets have been covered in games, let alone a large country. My gesss is that Harmonia is filled with relatively large cities and Crystal Valley serves as the hub of its economy.


Yeah but I mean this is Suikoden, not Final Fantasy, you need to compare the scale of Harmonia to other countries the games have been set in.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You guys make a good point. It would really have to depend on the hype, wouldn't it?

It also raises related questions regarding Suikoden fans in general. I'm not sure that Harmonia will have the same impact on fans that got into the Suikoden series later than others. Some of us have heard about the superpower from 1996. So those of us around that time had that long to think about it.

Contrast that with your friends that got into the series within a year from today. A friend of mine barely got into series (for a few months playing Suikoden 4 and 5) and she knows nothing about Harmonia at all. She'll probably hear about Harmonia when she gets through the first few games. But I wonder if she'll be as interested in the old countries as the new ones like Armes.

Oh well, if she won't care too much about the main continent, at least she'll be as anxious as I am with the new locations.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wes wrote:
RedCydranth wrote:
Harmonia is not too large to be put into a video game, Wes. For crying out loud, entire planets have been covered in games, let alone a large country. My gesss is that Harmonia is filled with relatively large cities and Crystal Valley serves as the hub of its economy.


Yeah but I mean this is Suikoden, not Final Fantasy, you need to compare the scale of Harmonia to other countries the games have been set in.


So you're saying that Harmonia will be larger than an entire Final Fantasy Planet? The amount of data storable on a PS2 (or 3) data CD is the same universally and there's no way they'd be unable to fit the entirity of the nation of Harmonia on there. Falena is definitely near the size of Harmonia and there was so much room for more stuff in Suikjoden V so I doubt they'll have a problem with Harmonia.

The only reason I can see not seeing everything in a Suikoden based in Harmonia is the relevance to storyline. We've not seen all the places in Grasslands and a majority of Zexen because the story never needed to venture to those locations. It would have been nice if we did see more of the nations but since it wasn't relevant they never placed it in. Zexen has a lot more land to the south of Vinay Del Zexay and Brass Castle but we never saw it because of story. Also we know there's a villiage called Nor in Zexen near Mt. Hei-Tou that was never seen, only heard about. If we don't see the entirity of Harmonia it will be beause of relevance to story, not because the nation is too large to fit in the game.

Black Pesmerga, your Hawaii and East Timor analogy doesn't work on all people. If I want to take a vacation I might want East Timor because its more mysterious and adventuous. I know what to expect with Hawaii. Coconuts, Volcanoes and Leis. But whats in East Timor? If its big enough to be labeled a vacation spot then there's gotta be some fun stuff to do. This applies to Suikoden. Which nation has more appeal. The one where you know there's a dude named Hikusaak with a circle rune, clones of himself as True Rune bearers and some tower with gunners or the complete mystery of not knowing anything about Kanakan other that they got booze and swordsmen. Sometimes knowing a lot about a place before you visit it can spoil the hype of it. Hawaii can be built us as this wonderful tropical paradise but when you get there it might be too hot for you, overcrowded, overpriced and you get sunburnt, but East Timor, the place you know little about has fewer travellers but more fun value. Of course it might suck but you go with an adventurers spirit and make it into a good time.

Black Pesmerga wrote:
If they've given us Harmonia, technically the location that most wanted, and if they don't deliver what we wanted, Konami could lose significant amount of Suikoden fan base.


This goes back to what do we want out of it? If someone wants there to be Robot guards and flaming hippo people and they don't get it they'll be disappointed. If they want a story about Harmonia, Hikusaak and the Circle Rune, they'll more than likely get it. If a game was set in Harmonia and they never touched the Hikusaak/Clone/Circle Rune thing then yes, tyour right, they'd lose a crap load of fans. But I hardly think Konami is that big of morons to not give us that. We might not get a big story on the Howling Voice Guild but thats because they're meant to be a secret organization, not big players in Harmonian politics and life. We'll see them but not to the extent we are hoping for. If this causes people to leave the series then they're far too shallow.

Ced, you're absolutely right about the sets of fans. I know there are people who'd much rather see whats going to happen in New armes or Gaien over Harmonia since they never played the early Suikodens or their dislike for Suikoden III made them not care about Harmonia. I know if I base my knowledge of Harmonia solely on Suikoden III, I'd probably not want to visit Harmonia. Luc was a turd in that game and Dios wasn't a very interesting character to say I'd love to see more of his nation. Based on stuff from Suikoden III, I'd rather see more Zexen than Harmonia. The only reason I really want to see Harmonia is because of Suikoden I & II with the Clive quests. I care more about the Howling Voice Guild than I do the rest of the nation. But answering questions about Hikusaak and Sasarai would be a great story setting.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It depends really, the personal hype people have takes a big part. It also comes down to whether people are hyped about Harmonia itself, or ecstatic about the existing Harmonian characters.
I'll be honest, Harmonia interests me, but I can't say I have any massive concepts or expectations. I half expect it to have a lot of inner disagreements, sort of like the Kooluk issue in tactics.
Harmonia for me is the characters I know thus far however. I like Luc and Sasarai, and seeing more of Sasarai is basically my only real need to visit Harmonia. The concept of Hikusaak interests me, but no more than other nations we have yet to visit.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RC wrote:
Black Pesmerga, your Hawaii and East Timor analogy doesn't work on all people. If I want to take a vacation I might want East Timor because its more mysterious and adventuous. I know what to expect with Hawaii. Coconuts, Volcanoes and Leis. But whats in East Timor? If its big enough to be labeled a vacation spot then there's gotta be some fun stuff to do. This applies to Suikoden. Which nation has more appeal. The one where you know there's a dude named Hikusaak with a circle rune, clones of himself as True Rune bearers and some tower with gunners or the complete mystery of not knowing anything about Kanakan other that they got booze and swordsmen.

You wouldn't be too excited with Hawaii because you know what coconuts, volcanoes, and leis are already. But when applied to Harmonia's case, we know nothing of what Harmonia is like. We know what to expect (HVG, Hikusaak), but we have no idea what they're like (we have no clue what HVG can really do, we have no idea what Hikusaak really want, etc). So if applied to my analogy, it'd be for someone who doesn't really know about coconuts, volcanoes, etc (ex: if you've lived in an igloo for your whole life) but have heard about how great coconuts and volcanoes are. Therefore "hype". When we're talking about hype, we know what to expect, but we don't really know what we'd get until the D-day.

And in the end, you're right that it's not for everyone because there would be some that are different than most people. But my analogy is enough to describe what most people would think.

RC wrote:
Sometimes knowing a lot about a place before you visit it can spoil the hype of it. Hawaii can be built us as this wonderful tropical paradise but when you get there it might be too hot for you, overcrowded, overpriced and you get sunburnt

Exactly. That's why the thread is about whether Harmonia can live up to its hype or not. And that's why my analogy is to say that we can't really expect the same from Harmonia than we do from Kanakan like you said. Because those two nations are hyped differently.

That's why advertising is important in our real life. If you've seen trailers of a movie often and it seems interesting, you'd be wanting to watch that movie more than some movie that you've never heard of (or heard very little of). That's exactly why the expectation is different, and that's my whole point to disagree with your "I think we can expect just as much from Harmonia as we can from Kanakan, Nameless Lands or New Armes." comment before. If they're hyped differently, then the expectations would also be different.

Or going back a bit, of course you (as a single person) can expect the same out of Harmonia and Kanakan. It comes down to personal opinion anyways. But most people, won't.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RedCydranth wrote:
Wes wrote:
RedCydranth wrote:
Harmonia is not too large to be put into a video game, Wes. For crying out loud, entire planets have been covered in games, let alone a large country. My gesss is that Harmonia is filled with relatively large cities and Crystal Valley serves as the hub of its economy.


Yeah but I mean this is Suikoden, not Final Fantasy, you need to compare the scale of Harmonia to other countries the games have been set in.


So you're saying that Harmonia will be larger than an entire Final Fantasy Planet? The amount of data storable on a PS2 (or 3) data CD is the same universally and there's no way they'd be unable to fit the entirity of the nation of Harmonia on there. Falena is definitely near the size of Harmonia and there was so much room for more stuff in Suikjoden V so I doubt they'll have a problem with Harmonia.


Fair enough but the way I see it:

- Suikoden doesn't have the budget of Final Fantasy.
- Harmonia wont be bigger than a world in Final Fantasy, but it will probably have more towns, cities and ruins and be alot of work for the developers to handle.
- If other countries are involved than that could make even more work (depending if they visit that country or not).
- It would kill alot of the mystery in the plot by giving us too much information which isn't really Suikoden's style.
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