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Neclord's Invincibility
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Neclord's Invincibility Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm a bit curious as to the culmination of Neclord's "invincibility", it seems to stem from a number of factors.

1. Blue Moon Rune - Gives him magical power.

2. Vampire - He is an undead enemy, making it hard for normal weapons to affect him and his zombie hordes.

3. Strange mistress sacrifices - These confuse me a bit, whatever he does with the women he abducts, does it actually contribute to his power?

When you see him in Suikoden II (the real Neclord), you can hardly hit him, and if you do, zero damage is done. So you lose that fight by default, then when you next see him in the Tinto mines, he places a curse on the whole town, turning them into zombies, but Riou and Nanami are saved by the power of the Bright Shield Rune. Does this mean in any way that Riou's rune could be effective against the Blue Moon Rune? Or is it just the power to defend himself against such spells.

Later we see him in the church to finally fight, where he fights inside the Marley Clan's seal, and Viktor uses the Star Drgaon Sword. Suddenly the whole entourage can hurt Neclord (that may be for gameplay purposes though), and once defeated he hands over the rune to Sierra. Is the Blue Moon Rune the sole source of his invincibilty? Or is the sacrifices, the fact hes a vampire or do other elements come into account?
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Alrighty, this is how I see it.

The Blue Moon Rune gives him magical power, as mentioned, it is also the source of his "invincibility". The Rune of the Night, for whatever reason, perhaps some sort of lame "Night/Moon" connection perhaps not, can nullify this.

As a vampire, he gains the ability to sire others as well as remarkable physical strength.

However, I would suggest, for no real reason, that the creation of zombies is linked to the Blue Moon Rune, rather than his own vampir-osity.

As for his abduction of ladies and his subsquent murder of them... He's a freak. I don't believe it contributes in any way. He just seems to have a 'thing' for it.

The Bright Shield Rune can offer protection from such things because, well, that's it's mission brief, it's a protective Rune by it's very nature.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield wrote:
The Blue Moon Rune gives him magical power, as mentioned, it is also the source of his "invincibility". The Rune of the Night, for whatever reason, perhaps some sort of lame "Night/Moon" connection perhaps not, can nullify this.


It just seems strange that this True Rune can only be beaten by another True Rune, and no others. Although this situation reminds me of Suikoden III, where each elemental rune seemed to cancel the other one out.


Last edited by Ujitsuna on Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote:
It just seems strange that tis True Rune can only be beaten by another True Rune, and no others. Although this situation reminds me of Suikoden III, where each elemental rune seemed to cancel the other one out.


Well, to be honest, we didn't exactly have a wealth of True Runes in Suikoden II to test against the Blue Moon Rune, did we? :P
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

True, but at the same time we're constantly reminded the Night rune is the only weapon that can damage Neclord.

Last edited by Ujitsuna on Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To be more accurate, we're reminded that the Star Dragon Sword is the only weapon that can damage Neclord because it is a form of the Rune of the Night.

That covers weapons, it doesn't cover other True Runes (because it's made clear this whole hanging out as a sword thing is highly unusual) or large rocks falling on his head.
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Masa

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Didn't Rean Penenburg have some of his own zombies though?

I would suggest Neclord is still a pretty damn powerful sorcerer in his own right - not all of it linked directly to his True Rune. Even with the Star Dragon, losing his True Rune, and even being trapped from escaping - he still gave Riou and company a good fight. He'd have won if they didn't gang up on him like that!

I'd venture to say he was more powerful than Sierra, even though she had a higher mastery of the Rune. Neclord spent centuries in the company of Windy, another one of Suikoden's most powerful sorceresses. Being amongst such a skilled master surely rubbed off on him, as he picked up some powerful techniques - such as the doppelganger trick as well as the ability to summon that big rock golem in the Tinto Mines. As I said before, he was also pretty powerful even without his True Rune.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, he did have the Blue Moon Rune while he fought Riou and company in the seal, doesn't he give the rune to Sierra after the battle? Might have been before but my memory is a bit fuzzy.

Rean Penenburg was a vampire created by the coven mistress (Sierra Mikain), and not by another - weaker vampire, which explains his power, perhaps Neclord was too, or just a weak vampire who stole a powerful rune. It's possible he learned the doppleganger technique from Windy, but then again, wasn't Windy working with a doppleganger of Neclord most of the time?


Last edited by Ujitsuna on Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Masa

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well I think that depends on how the Doppelganger Trick works. My thought would be that like, Neclord has some underground Cloning Facility with several Neclord bodies sitting in cloning tubes. If Neclord dies, his consciousness is transferred to his backup body. Only less science fiction.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Neclord's Invincibility Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hayashi Ujitsuna wrote:

Does this mean in any way that Riou's rune could be effective against the Blue Moon Rune? Or is it just the power to defend himself against such spells.


I think what actually went on here is that the Zombie effect was from the Blue moon rune. And because the true runes in alot of cases are equally as powerful the Bright Shield rune just counterd the effect and did not let the blue moon rune effect Riou. Much like Geddoe's lightning rune was able to stop Luc's attack when he only used the True Wind rune. However this does not explain why it did not effect Nanami. Possibly at the same time the rune thought to defend it's host with its power, Riou though to defend Nanami with the rune's power so they were both saved.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To be precise, Neclord's invincibility comes from the doppleganger secret. Otherwise, he can be killed like other runic vampires-- with the Star Dragon Sword.
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Vextor wrote:
To be precise, Neclord's invincibility comes from the doppleganger secret. Otherwise, he can be killed like other runic vampires-- with the Star Dragon Sword.


So, do you mean he can create copies of himself that will die instead of the real version?
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Sierra Mikain

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's unlikely that the Bright Shield Rune is as powerful as the Blue Moon Rune because it's not a whole rune. I've always assumed that all true runes are equal in amount of power, but some simply have advantages over others.

That being said, I don't think the night rune is needed to defeat the Blue Moon Rune, but to defeat a runic vampire. There is a difference.

I've always believed that the true runes have minds of their own. Several times in the series it was hinted at that this may be the case. Since the Blue Moon Rune did not choose Neclord to be its bearer, it's likely it had no will to protect him from any attacks. Since Neclord was also unable to harness its power, through either the fact that he was not chosen or his own incompetence, he was unable to overcome this.

Vampires are known in lore to become stronger as they age. Thus the strongest vampire is usually the oldest vampire elder. Neclord was around 400 years old at the time of the first 2 games thus giving him extraordinary power simply from his age.

Lastly, Neclord is, in all likelihood, one of two runic vampires we've ever seen in the series. The other being Sierra. Kahn mentioned that the only weapon capable of destroying Neclord is the Star Dragon Sword, which is a weapon used to kill runic vampires, not blood made vampires. Whether Sierra used the rune to make Neclord a vampire (unlikely) or whether Neclord took advantage of the fact that Sierra did not bear the rune in the village (my opinion) is not known. But, his power likely comes from the fact that he is an old runic vampire and not from the blue moon rune.

Yes? No? ^_^
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Uji wrote:
So, do you mean he can create copies of himself that will die instead of the real version?

Well, yeah. He did that way back when in Suikoden I when we first meet him. What Tir and his company killed in Suikoden I was just a "fake" Neclord and that the real Neclord was still doing his stuff until we meet him again in Suikoden II.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nah, with the use of the "Doppleganger Secret," there's no "real version. The only thing that can be said as being the "real version" would be Neclord's soul. By using the Doppleganger Secret, Neclord is able to construct a new body. There' no details on how this is done, but it happens after his "body" is destroyed.

It's similar to how vampires in common lore can reconstruct their body in a day or so.
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