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Lucretia as a tactition *SPOILERS*
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poorguy171




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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: Lucretia as a tactition *SPOILERS* Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

We've been having a discussion at the GameFAQs boards about whether Lucretia is a good tactition or not, and I feel like I'm the only one defending her! Here's the two sides:

THEM: A lot of people are saying that she had very weak and predictable strategies, and the only real "strategy" she used was just predicting the future. She seemed to always know exactly what the enemy was doing, despite Gizel's tactics. And she seemed to know everything about everyone, even though she hadn't even been born in Falena. The biggest complaint is that she seems like a psychic, and always perfectly predicts the outcome.

ME: I felt she had some great strategies. Lowering the water in the Feitas river to get the enemy stuck in debris, turning the tables on Salum Barows' little Armes plan, evacuating the castle and sending a decoy to Raftleet, having the dwarves/beavers use the ancient sluice gates, and more. She was able to use these tactics because of her knowledge of Falena, which she probably learned from her 10 years in spending there. Considering that she's been studying in Harmonia for many years, and then spent at least 10 years as a tactition in Falena, it only makes sense that she would be able to use such tactics.

And as for predicting the Godwin's plans, that's quite understandable. They didn't have a genius tactition on their side like Leon or Albert, who caused a lot of losses in their respective games. The only tactition the enemy had was Gizel, who was basically just an educated man who liked "playing games." Most of their moves were rather predictable in the first place, and the unpredictable moves were unseen by Lucretia (like the Godwins using the Sun Rune to destroy the dam; she had expected Sialeeds to do it, or how Godwin had stopped the Dragon Cavalry from acting). Plus, it's not like the entire Prince's army just sat in the castle all the time. I'm sure they had scouts and spies out.

So, what are people's thoughts? Is she just an overrated psychic, or a military genius? And Sars, I especially want to hear your thoughts. I know you said (at least when Suikoden V first came out) that Lucretia is your favorite character.
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Dawlight


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

She's the best tactitian in suikoden, It was her idea to move from the castle when childerich would attack and if you stay and defend something bad happens.

spoiler:
roy goes to heaven ! end :

The other strategists would probabally had a different response!
Lucretia is pure genius!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
THEM: A lot of people are saying that she had very weak and predictable strategies, and the only real "strategy" she used was just predicting the future. She seemed to always know exactly what the enemy was doing, despite Gizel's tactics. And she seemed to know everything about everyone, even though she hadn't even been born in Falena. The biggest complaint is that she seems like a psychic, and always perfectly predicts the outcome.


Knowing everything possible about the people of a nation is important as a tactician. Since she knew as much as she did she was able to do a good job. Just because you know a lot about a person doesn't make you psychic. Psychologist's can tell a lot about a person just in one meeting and tell you what kind of choices that person would make about certain things. Maybe Lucretia was just really good at reading people and while she was working for Falena she would have been able to talk to a lot of the people that played a role in the game. Plus I think she was still studying the people and politics of Falena while she was in prison through Lelei and Cius.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maybe she was just gifted with the ESP rune!! :*you should; excessive use/abuse of emoticons is against the rules*
She just thinks faster than others.( am i right or am i right?!)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's not that she's psychic. She is just that smart, and I don't think her wits are that of the astronomical rank that it is unfeasible and unbelievable. She's been in Falena for about eight years now, and she has spent two of it in prison, where she really had not much to do, so she probably gathered more facts for herself.

Also, let's remember that Lady Merces served under Lord Godwin as a tactician, so no doubt she has an idea on how he would act. Also, it's not that farfetched as well that, as you mentioned, she had some spies to check up on enemy status.

She also has some prowess in logical thinking that she almost accurately assesses how people act. She basically used her knowledge of the Falenan geography and history, as well as the people to her advantage so that she could formulate her brilliant strategies.

Obviously, I stand by "military genius".
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Obviously, I stand by "military genius".


I have to agree with that. It doesn't mean that she's psychic at all. She did explain before that she knows so much because Lelei and Cius told her all about outside world. Being a woman who knew the possibilities and decisions one can make at times like that, she can infer the answer to what will happen next.

Sometimes, even simple math or statistics can help in things like that. She is also knowledgeable about everything in the boundaries of Falena. It's natural for her then to infer what places would be best toattack at times like this and that's how she can say whwich ones are under a bigger threat. There's nothing psychic about that, it's all about the facts.

That's why i admire Lucretia. Since she's able to know what will happen based on such limited facts. ^^
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lucretia had the ability to predict what the opposing force's plans, added with strong instincts that would only come from years of strategic experience. That is the most important skill strategist should possess, not the ability to create a magnificent, unpredictable strategy with a low chance of success (Shu's fire strategy comes to mind). A war is a race to outpredict the opponent, and Lucretia excelled the art. Predictable as her strategies may be, they were always two steps in front of the enemy. That is all that matters.

Also, she is not the "psychic strategist" as many people seem to label her. She admitted it herself that she was wrong in predicting what Sialeeds would do, therefore making the Lymsleia-kidnapping campaign a failure.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If the US were to predict where and when Osama would be and then capture him, would you call them psychic or that they knew what they were doing for once? At first glance, it's easy to label her as having some sort of supernatural power to predict the future since most things worked out perfectly. Note how I said most things. They did say that her tactics were perfect during the Armes invasion before Suikoden V's event did they not? Everytime they listened to her, they won. Were these people at gamefaqs who proclaim her to be psychic expecting your own group to lie to you?

I can imagine it now. Georg and Sialeeds decide to play a prank on the prince. They'll have him go and bust some totally idiotic woman who doesn't know the difference between her elbow and a hole in the ground out of prison and they'll call her a "master strategist." It'll be a riot.

Others have already brought up points about how she could be how good she was, so I won't. I just thought this needed a good dose of sarcasm.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Scrooge McDuck wrote:
Lucretia had the ability to predict what the opposing force's plans, added with strong instincts that would only come from years of strategic experience. That is the most important skill strategist should possess, not the ability to create a magnificent, unpredictable strategy with a low chance of success (Shu's fire strategy comes to mind). A war is a race to outpredict the opponent, and Lucretia excelled the art. Predictable as her strategies may be, they were always two steps in front of the enemy. That is all that matters.


He was up against Leon Silverberg. :P

Scrooge McDuck wrote:
Also, she is not the "psychic strategist" as many people seem to label her. She admitted it herself that she was wrong in predicting what Sialeeds would do, therefore making the Lymsleia-kidnapping campaign a failure.


Yeah she did make a mistake, it's just that in the game, it doesn't seem that she gets any blame for it and completely distances herself from the fault (which I guess is a sign of a good tactition). Shes good, but in some situations such as knowing that the gladiators have broken out and attacked Godwin's forces during the attack on Stormfist, it gets a bit farfetched at points, to me, anyway.
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poorguy171




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wes wrote:
Yeah she did make a mistake, it's just that in the game, it doesn't seem that she gets any blame for it and completely distances herself from the fault (which I guess is a sign of a good tactition). Shes good, but in some situations such as knowing that the gladiators have broken out and attacked Godwin's forces during the attack on Stormfist, it gets a bit farfetched at points, to me, anyway.


In that case maybe. But later in the game, she even admits that she was wrong about the strategist never apologizing in public (it was after the whole Sialeeds event IIRC).
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To me, she was alright...
but still, i think the Silverbergs are still better than her :D
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was never able to personally like Lucretia as much as I hoped I would, but I think she was quite a talented tactician. She surprised me with all the things she was able to figure out- actually I was very impressed with her. I liked the plans that used the rivers...such a good use of terrain...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The problem, IMHO, with Lucretia is that she was TOO good of a strategist. She seemed to know EVERYTHING in advance, way more so than other Suikoden tacticians, so it just cheapened the experience for me. BTW, I absolutely loved her as a character, I loved her theme song, her look, her personality... I just wish she wasn't so damn good!

That's the reason why Shu has remained my favourite. He was good, he could predict the enemies moves and whatnot, but he still failed sometimes and even had to leave things up to chance (the fire card). That to me brought a lot of depth and realism to his character. Lucretia just kept me wondering WTF ESP??

edit: Post # 108 :)
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was personally glad she was so overwhelmingly competent. More importantly, she let the hero decide what course of action he would take, then stood by his decision, even if she thought there were a better option.

However, that also ties into my only complaint about her: we never find out what her goals are. What they really are, I mean. The game makes such a big deal out of her possibly turning on the Prince if he makes a bad decision, but she doesn't, even if you choose to defend the Castle (and likely suffer the horrific losses she predicted). And she never flat-out says she's just helping the Prince because she likes Falena. Then she just up and leaves at the end of the game, never to be heard from again.

Maybe I'm just getting tired of enigma in Suikoden. Build up too many questions and you're running a big risk of hyping the answers- if you even get to them. :oops:
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

She's no Shu with the FIRE CARD OF DOOM~!, but I'd still take her over most of the other Suikoden strategists. Apple seemed to progress more as a historian than a tactician between I and III. Ceaser appeared to sleepwalk though most of the war and his involvement was actually fairly limited compared to the others. Elenor was merely competent. Leon and Albert could both probably out-maneuver Lucretia, although not without a great deal of collateral damage. In my book, that puts her in the upper tier along with Mathiu and Shu, but I do admit that I'd rather replay Suikoden V just to be completely sure of that.
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