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Pre-Seperation Harmonia (The Highland-Toran Conundrum)

 
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Pre-Seperation Harmonia (The Highland-Toran Conundrum) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok, so a common query over the years has been this.

If Harmonia ruled over the Toran region (and in fact placed the original Harmonian capital there) and if it's also true that Harmonia never ruled the Dunan region (or at least what we knew as the City-States of Jowston) then how were the two areas part of the same nation?

The easiest answer is that they simply sailed back and forth, which isn't too plausible. Aronia is overthrown, Harmonia is founded, the nation would go on to become the most powerful in the world and it couldn't take over a crumbling nation (Kingdom of Dunan) and a smattering of city-states?

But the answer could be quite simple.

Strict national borders are not known to us in the Suikoden world. We can have a vauge idea, of course, judged loosely on border towns and those all too common RPG-style natural mountains and forests that serve to keep your nation isolated.

By following the game mechanics strictly. We can use Suikoden II to determine that a potential southern border of pre-Highland independence Harmonia could stetch down slightly further south than Ryube village. (Jowston/Dunan)

If we look at the official Suikoden I and II maps which give us a look at both the old Scarlet Moon Empire, the old City-States of Jowston as well as the old Highland Kingdom we can judge the eastern coast of the Dunan region to lock in with the north western regions of Toran with the only real debating point being the size of the gap between the two. (Which is irrelevent to this anyway)

And so, as the map created by my good self and used on this very site shows, the mountain range that practically engulfs Highland stretches down and down forming into the same mountains that surround western Arlus where Sarady lays.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. If this is indeed the case (and I see no reason why it is not), it is not impossible to assume that there is or was some sort of mountain paths or even unshown valleys amongst these mountains. These of course would offer some sort of land link between Harmonian-controlled Toran and what we know today as Harmonia.

And thus, the dubious theorm of sailing along the eastern coast of Dunan is eliminated and Pre-Seperation Harmonia is shown to have indeed had a land link bringing together all know regions under their control.

Soooo... whaddya think?

Edit: Aw man, wrong section. Can a moderator move this at the earliest convienence?
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iscalio




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why is a connection through seafare more "dubious" than a land bridge consisting of a mountain range?

Many empires on our earth had provinces overseas, and even today exclaves are not uncommon. And it would be much easier (and faster) to transport information, goods and national spirit with ships than on the back of mules and other beasts of burden on never-ending mountain trails.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Then remember that the Badlands weren't always "the Badlands" back then, they only became that after Crowley and Mazus had their duel there. So that region may have been a connecting bridge between Dunan and Jowston.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

According to the timelines Harmonia was established approx 110 years before Dunan was established, with its capital in south window and not in Muse.

The duel between Mazus and Crowley happened approximately 200 years after that.

So taking then into account timeframe Harmonia would have had approximately 310 years of rule before any real nations or events popped up to prevent them taking a land route, and considering then approx 120 years later Hamronia is embroiled in internal strife, with the quelling of that resulting in Highland & the scarlet moon empire being established.

The likely scenario would be that Harmonia regained their territories through take and hold tactics, leaving battallions in each land that was conquered from Aronia. The likely outcome is that they expanded far too quickly without maintaining power, and subsequently when Jowston was formed and they lost their land bridge to Toran, civil war erupted.

So the map would incorporate jowston as a 3 city fledgling nation with Sth Window, Muse and Two River (if we recall radat leads to the badlands) Highland isnt formed yet and is apart of Harmonia. So with Harmonia slowly losing the available land to trade and having then to go through Jowston as well as internal strife for whatever reason they lost the toran area.
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Admiral Ackbar

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I guess it would be easiest to assume that Harmonia didn't have any interest in Dunan.

And I'm sure there were people in Dunan that protected it, and I'm sure there were still cities there in some form. They just hadn't yet formed an actual alliance or made any major cities. Heck, Harmonia may have been stopped by a True Rune of some kind. They may have a greedy eye for True Runes, but when a True Rune wants to accomplish something and the Stars of Destiny align behind it, there isn't much any opposing force can do. Look at the first Fire Bringer War. The True Fire Rune alone stopped Harmonia from invading.

Maybe they were busy attacking Kooluk to the south? I'm not sure how far back the Kooluk/Scarlet Moon strife has been going on for, but maybe it leads back to when Scarlet Moon was under Harmonian control. Not to mention the denizens of the Great Forest. They're not exactly friendly to humans. Barbarosa Rugner invaded the Great Forest during the Succession Wars, I think, to hide from Geil Rugner. I guess I need to read about the Succession War again!

I'm sure the geography of having a nation in between two controlled territories sounds wierd, but it makes sense when you look at the ocean. They could simply sail down the east shore and colonize Highland and Scarlet Moon. Dunan doesn't connect to the sea does it? That would take more effort to invade or colonize, and Dunan lacks any decent trading routes and has no ocean ports at all and may not have been worth the effort.
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmm, well, I know Barbarossa's forces were stationed at Pannu Yakuta which is in the Great Forest region. I always assumed he had permission, possibly because Geil Rugner was an asshat and the minority races could see Barbarossa would be less of one.

As for sailing down the east shore, it makes sense. Except I always assumed that if that was the case they would've sailed UP the east shore seeing as the original Harmonian capital of Rupanda is where modern-day Gregminster lies.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

East...west...same thing!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like the idea of there being so many more routes and trails to travel to get anywhere in Suikoden.

As far as Toran to Dunan is concerned it may very well be true. Sarady should exist for a reason other than isolational tourism (perhaps);Kyaro has Lude Woods to the north of itself which seems to me to appear as an entrance point to somewhere. Ryube and Eastern Muse must have more to it than an easy place to start a war with Jowstone.

It's true that there where "two mountains" and one "lake". Banner is an area of transport as well (but these points are obvious).

On a side note: It was noted by Sheena that he and Apple took a boat to "Highland" when they brought up the Badlands subject in regards to getting to the Toran Republic.

Bye for now, and keep up the good work Vexter and people of Suikox.

Ryan.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-Seperation Harmonia (The Highland-Toran Conundrum) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It could be there were a lot of bad decsions or there policies were not that of an expansionist. I know there's sailing and such but teleportation about as common as well (or maybe even more given there are far more magic users then there are ships and what have you) Harmonia's armies in suikoden II literally teleported in and out of battle as did other forces. Now unless teleportation was a recent means then we can only assume that there was not much intrest in the region or that harmonia had bigger problems to deal with. Or that harmonia's forces are not all that they are made up to be, there's nothing outstanding about warrior's village but they broke off harmonia pretty well.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Pre-Seperation Harmonia (The Highland-Toran Conundrum) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I dont think Harmonia would leave Dunan free in the midlle of its land, it contradicts harmonia expanionist government.

Isnt it possible that, ironically, that kingdom Dunan status be the same as Highland kingdom? Like the Dunan cities made something for Harmonia (ex.: willingly gave them a true rune) and Hikusaak gave them independence as a reward. A protectorate state, indepedent, but still obligated to cooperate with Harmonia when asked with free trade and passage.

Maybe the fall of this possible pro-Harmonia kingdom is tied with the Harmonia civil war and why after that Highland was so agressive towards them.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think John may have been right when he said that sea travel to conquer Highland and the current Highland region was dubious. Since when have we seen Harmonia using naval combat? Or sea travel at all? That's not to say that they never used the water for travel, but if Harmonia relied on naval tactics before, why wouldn't they still? And why wouldn't they own land on other continents?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It could kind of be like a USA and Alaska thing. As for the whole naval tactics thing, it could be that Harmonia just wasn't very skilled with their boats. They could use them for transport for but lacked the maneuverability that would be required in a naval battle. Also, (random stupid theory coming that nobody should take seriously) they might not have trusted the water as it's too chaotic and unpredictable and aren't they all about order and stability?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maybe what happen is that there was mariage betwen harmonia that was in toran and another kingdom that was in the area that is now harmonia. So now with that merg they found other kingdoms that might attack there foothold or did or they where after the true runes so they keeped on expanding to what they found there, which keeped them mostly occupied then the other regions that they could've gone like dunan region.
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