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A disturbing mindset

 
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:17 pm    Post subject: A disturbing mindset Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In an interview with 1-up, Masayuki Saruta had this to say about why Suiko Tierkreis was set in a different universe:

Quote:
I really appreciate your long and loyal appreciation of the Suikoden series. One of Suikoden: Tierkreis' key themes is the potential the future holds, and this is self-evident in the Suikoden franchise itself, as it has the potential to grow and become something great and new.

As you mentioned, Suikoden has a lot of features that are unique to the series, such as the world and settings, which fans have enjoyed for a long time. However, it's also true that previous Suikoden releases have been relatively niche titles. We want as many people as possible to enjoy Suikoden: Tierkreis, which is why we chose to create a new game universe, as it won't be burdened by backstory that new players wouldn't have an understanding of. Also, we think this game is so great that longtime fans of the series will end up recommending Tierkreis to other players who've never played a Suikoden game before as a great introduction into the series.

The plan after Tierkreis hasn't been decided, but we'll continue to develop games that will expand the core appeal of the franchise to a wider audience. My hope is that all previous and new fans of Suikoden will continue to love the series for as long as possible.

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3171794&p=39

This has been distressing me and costing me sleep, to think that the powers-that-be in the Suiko team believe that having a complex plot is a bad thing. It explains why they decided to break away from the "present" setting and start making filler-prequels. Now they've stepped beyond even that into the possibility of outright discarding the burdensome world they've developed in favor of more Tierkreises.

I don't want this to happen, and I would wager that nearly everyone else in the fan community feels the same way. We need to make it clear to Konami somehow that this is not the direction they should be taking their series, and that we're not so stupid as to not be able to figure out a complex plot that's taken all of 5 games and spinoffs, and that that's exactly what the game's appeal is - the vast backstory and loose ends without it being dumbed down the way every other fucking thing in the world is these days.

I know they are a business, and just trying to make money like any other business - but I believe that even in that regard it is a bad idea. I for one will not buy Suikoden Tierkreis 2 if it were released in place of future developments on Planet Suiko, as there's nothing binding me to the series anymore, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

So what do you think? Would a petition be effective at all, or should we individually write in expressing our greivances? Or are you fine with this development?
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SixWingedSin




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can say I wouldn't be pleased if they continue to release Tierkreis games in the place of the Suikoden series as a whole, but I would also have to say it'd be better to do that than to name a game Suikoden IV and release it as a Tierkreis II. Nowhere in there did it say that there would be no more Suikoden games in the same vein as the older ones though. The biggest problem I'd have is if they just do what they do in Final Fantasy, which is to ditch everything past games have done and make a new story altogether. (AKA, making Suikoden just another Final Fantasy game with 108 party members available).

The biggest issue I have there is that he assumes that each title can't be played as a stand-alone title. While the games do reference each other, it's not required to have knowledge of any of the previous games to enjoy any single one on its own.
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Raww Le Klueze




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I thought you said I was jumping to conclusions when I said the same thing? Frankly, the only way you can convince them not to replace Suiko with Tierkreis-themed games is to not buy Tierkreis.

Quote:
it's not required to have knowledge of any of the previous games to enjoy any single one on its own.

I'd agree except for III as I can't see how anyone would understand much of the antagonists without previous knowledge of them, as well as the reveal of the masked bishop can't mean much to anyone who doesn't know Luc. For all his clone being he doesn't look that much like Sasarai that it'd make anyone wonder if they're related.

II is playable on it's own, but you do get more enjoyment from it if you played I first. Sure they make a nice attempt to explain the situation of the first game but it still leans heavily on it.

V does an excellent job incorporating characters that already existed without alienating anyone that hasn't played the previous games.
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Elc

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":3dvqg20o]I thought you said I was jumping to conclusions when I said the same thing? Frankly, the only way you can convince them not to replace Suiko with Tierkreis-themed games is to not buy Tierkreis.


That's a double edged sword as, while it might have the effect of no further Tierkreis-themed games, it might also convince Konami that there isn't any market for Suikoden games outside of Japan. However, I can see the "burden" aspect from Konami's point of view, particularly after seeing the type of questions asked in the questions to the development team. (some have a downright antagonistic tone towards the team, to be honest)

It's not a stretch to say we all love how the games build on one another and whether or not people like the order in which recent games have been released (not a problem for me, personally), they all flesh out the world in their own way. Had Tierkreis been set within that world, you just know there would be people demanding to know what's going on with Yuber and Pesmerga and what's up with Jeane and Viki, just to name a few. If this was a game titled "Suikoden VI" and released on a PlayStation console then I could certainly see it being a rather significant issue to bring up, but Tierkreis isn't #6 nor is it on a PlayStation console, it's a handheld game intended to attract new gamers. In its own way, it's similar to Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles for the Nintendo consoles, a spur off the main titles.

Given the questions sent to the development team, they'll no doubt know that for future installments of the main series the established fan base will want it to continue in and expand upon that world. It should also be kept in mind that not everybody has every console and potential new players introduced through Tierkreis may not have a Sony console or have played the previous games and, while the existing games can be played on their own without having to have played the previous games, there would always be those who would react negatively if the game was set in the main universe yet included absolutely no reference or connection to what came before. Therefore, when people play Tierkreis, it can be judged on its own merits instead of being blasted for not following up on a particular story thread or Luc not having the True Wind rune.

So... if there is more than one Suikoden development team, one could be working on the Tierkreis series while the other could be working on the main numbered series. Naturally, every single gamer is free to decide whether or not they want to invest in a game so, if the Tierkreis concept isn't for you, you're not being forced to buy a copy. I will likely pick up a copy (if I can find one) as my dad has a DS, but I am still awaiting Suikoden VI.
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
I thought you said I was jumping to conclusions when I said the same thing? Frankly, the only way you can convince them not to replace Suiko with Tierkreis-themed games is to not buy Tierkreis.

You were saying that there will be no Suiko 6. I'm saying that this mindset has been around since long before Tierkreis, and that it's troubling me - not just because there might not be a suiko 6 (there will be) but the fact that they seem to worry more about making the content shallow enough for everyone to play than releasing solid content and advancing the story. I worry that they'll water it down the way that so many other things I've loved were. And to be clear, I'm not ranting about Suikoden Tierkreis, I'm ranting about the mindset that allowed it to be made.

That said, Elc has a point. Dunno what it is yet, since it's 2:30 AM and his post is pretty damn long, but there's something there dammit.
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Darkbeat




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Let's not over-react, there's a few things to keep in mind here:

1. Boycotting Tierkreis or any future sequel thereof will only damage the chances of seeing future Suikoden installments in standard Suiko-verse. Fans boycotted Breath of Fire 5 Dragon Quarter en masse and were rewarded by Capcom shelving the series indefinitely. Tierkreis is still a Suikoden game and for what it's worth, it's a different yet decent addition to the series. Support for it, while expressing the desire for a return to standard Suiko-verse, is the most effective way to get what we all want. Besides, Tierkreis is too good to boycott anyway.

2. As you've said, we are so used to irrelevant prequels with wafer-thin connections to the first three installments, that the differences in Tierkreis aren't that big a shock to the system.

3. Tierkreis isn't Suikoden VI, this is pretty much well covered in Elc's post.

4. The comments quoted are vague on future installments, pretty much aluding only that: If the game sells well, we will continue to support Suikoden. It's possible Tierkreis is intended only to increase the fanbase of the series in preperation for VI, or even to bring them back. Given the decline of Suikoden support since it's peak at III, it's certainly possible.
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Elc

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Yvl":pxkb0fx0]That said, Elc has a point. Dunno what it is yet, since it's 2:30 AM and his post is pretty damn long, but there's something there dammit.


Whoa! I guess it's true that there's a first time for everything. Yes, you heard it right here, even I can have a point (though none of us can figure out what that point may be) from time to time. :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't know about anyone else here, but I've never found Suikoden's plot to be very complex. Young boy appears who's living a fairly good life. Some event usually tragic and contains a death ends this good life in which the young boy obtains a true rune. Then from some other circumstance whether it by status, ability, or divine right, or people smarter than he is knowing to stay on the backlines where you can't get shot at with arrows. But whatever it is he becomes the leader of a small army which grows and grows until they beat the bad guys. Of course there's your basic plot. Ups and downs, climax and resolution but it's never been what I'd call complex. Heck I've read sunday morning funnies that are more complex than one of the games plots.

However despite the plots being fairly consistent and simple, the subplots, back stories, histories and world environment that makes it seem more indepth and complex than it really is. Each game is more than playable on it's own. Only Suikoden II even comes close to that, but if you don't load save data then half the conversations in the game change and makes this point obsolete.

I mean sure, will you get more pleasure out of the games knowing the connection to Rachel and Camille or Fred to Maximillian? Or seeing Flik and Viktor showing up to save Riou and Jowy's butts after playing the original? Sure, but I don't think any of this makes the games more complex. But I guess I'm wrong there, since I'd see it as a good marketing scheme. Someone plays the new one, gets the hints and just -has- to play the old ones. But since that doesn't seem to happen -too- often. I guess they gotta do what gets the games off the shelves.

Then again, personally I'd prefer we go back to the time when RPG's were actually hard rather than long and frustratingly tedious.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm disappointed by the fact that after 3 years, they still cannot decide which direction the series will go. And I'm also disappointed that by making Tierkries more appealable to new gamers by making it more like final fantasy by disregarding the former suiko plots, they have to do it in Nintendo DS.

If they want to appeal the new gamers out there. They should try to make a Tierkries in PS3, wholly independent of the Suiko plots before. Maybe that will work for everybody.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Yvl":q9ji7hpc]You were saying that there will be no Suiko 6.

I've never said that. I said if Tierkreis is successful it will overtake the original setting.

Quote:
not just because there might not be a suiko 6 (there will be)

Bet your life?

Quote:
Boycotting Tierkreis or any future sequel thereof will only damage the chances of seeing future Suikoden installments in standard Suiko-verse.

Once you give Konami irrefutable proof that they can make more money by going away from the original setting they're not going to go back for the hell of it.

Quote:
Besides, Tierkreis is too good to boycott anyway.

Tierkreis is too bad to spend any money on. Now that we've covered the pointless subjective opinions that are completely irrelevant can we get back on topic?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Re: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[quote="Raww Le Klueze":2wh77g68]Once you give Konami irrefutable proof that they can make more money by going away from the original setting they're not going to go back for the hell of it.


So you recommend boycotting it and leaving it open for them to shelve the series entirely. Great.

Noone wants to see them return to the standard Suiko-verse more than me, but boycotting Tierkreis isn't the way to do that. Or did you boycott Rhapsodia so Konami wouldn't make any future installments SRPGs?


Quote:
Tierkreis is too bad to spend any money on. Now that we've covered the pointless subjective opinions that are completely irrelevant can we get back on topic?


Perhaps you could actually give some input or genuine counter-arguements instead of selectively quoting out of context and resorting to ad hominem in every single post you make on these boards?
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Yvl

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I know boycotting doesn't work. I said I won't buy T2 because I'm not interested in a sequel to that game, it's not for political reasons. I just want to make it clear to Konami that they aren't going to increase their profits if they break away from the main series. It is a bad business decision one way or another - as Darkbeat said, since they decided that the game's settings and characters were too burdensome, their profits have taken a nosedive.
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