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Chaos and Order
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Inko

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is no such thing as true order because if there was everything would be the same. And there is no "Harmony" in nature because nothing in nature is the same.

In my opinion i think that there needs to be more chaos then order.
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Seakida




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well in my opinion is we need a balance, our current would is tipping the scale toward chaos, which is okay. But it would be better to live under one banner so to speak. Man versus Man wars are pointless and the only Man to Man conflict should be a serious fight that could lead to man slaughter at the most. But seriously, we as people should have better things to do then to fight each other.
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Noot

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Seakida wrote:
I do think that using Earthly and Heavenly will be a way to seperate the True Runes into Sword and Sheild.


I like the idea of the True Runes falling into either the "Shield" or "Sword" categories. The True Runes are the result of that first celestial battle, so it would only explain why the runes are still trying to create and resolve conflicts in human affairs. That beginning battle is ongoing.

I'm not sure what the characteristics of the "Shield"-spawned True Runes are, nor the ones for the "Sword". But it would be an interesting theory if anyone cared to delve into it.
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torebaa




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

the nature of life is pattern. in harmony is predictability.
however, in chaos it is pattern that also rules. confusing as it may seem, 'chaos' exists only in the existance of equal harmony and chaos, thus balancing out and canceling out oneanother.

that is why suiko is in constant turmoil... sword and shield both hold opposing powers thus creating 'chaos' or better put disorder.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
There is no such thing as true order because if there was everything would be the same. And there is no "Harmony" in nature because nothing in nature is the same.


That's really the point. True Order is not better than True Choas. The world in which Luc had visions, was a world of pure Order. It's a world where everything is perfect harmony - but because of this, there is no life, or passion, or colour. It's grey, bland and ultimately empty.

Having chaos more than order would also be pointless, as by tautilogical definition, the world would be chaotic.

Hence the constant strive for blanace. Not order, but balance. Notice how all the runes have a sense of "double-edged" power to them. The cirlce rune creates order, allowing Harmonia to grow and strive as a poweful nation, however, mis-use of the rune has created stagnation and disrest.

The same can be seen with any rune. The True Fire Rune for example can spread warmth and growth throughout the land, but it can also burn and destroy people. I suppose the most obvious would be The Soul Eater, having control over both Life and Death. The Blue Moon Rune grants compassion, but also destruction. The Dragon Rune would most likely be the most painful rune (in my mind) as the one who must bear the rune, will outlive his or her dragon, and would from then on live in a world where he/she can never again experience what the others continually do.

The point is trying to find the balance between the two states. Which is what many people, and many nations try to acheive in Suikoden.

Also, on a side note, I don't hold true to the Sword and Shield story myself. I believe there are entities of Order and Choas, but I don't believe the world started between a battle of a Sword and Shield. To me it's a metaphor for how the world began. Logically thinking about it, how many people know how the world was truly created? None. Same would be said for Suikoden, nobody truly knows how it started, and the Sword and Shield story would most likely be folk-lore and legend passed down through the ages to explain the True Runes and the world.
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Seakida




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So then saying sword and sheild wouldn't be the same as saying chaos and order.

New theory-
All the True Runes combined creates perfect Order, and when Sword and Sheild fought, it created imperfect Order or Chaos rather. This is why Yuber is has so much blind hatred to True Runes. Luc tried to defy Order by getting rid of a small part of it (Wind Rune). If all Runes combine or what ever they will do in the end, it will bring back the distorted Order, and thus a "grey, bland and ultimately empty" world.

Sword and Sheild are two different ways of having Order. If these two things are in conflict no more Order. If these two are in harmony, Order. If this occurs, then Yuber can kiss his oh'so'sweet Chaos good bye. The conflicts the Runes create with one and another is not to show whose superior, but rather to unite with each other to bring back Order.

To put the Sword v/s Sheild to the same terms. There might have been a big mass of Energy, and it just exploded, creating 27 jewels we call Runes. And 22 these Runes had certain traits to create Mankind, and the other 5 had traits to create the world.

Well I think that deserves some serious thought.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's not a bad theory, the only problem I have with it is that there seems to be no shade of grey. It's either the Runes combine or they don't. Order of Chaos. There's no, for want of a much better word, balance inbetween the two states.

Maybe I read it wrong, but as I understand it, it would mean that at the moment the world is in "Chaos" as the Runes are not combined and are trying to combine. If they combine that will create Order. So to me that would be either choosing between staying in a world of Chaos (which isn't particuarly chaotic compared to how things could be) or Order.
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Seakida




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well the balance would what Luc was trying to do, a world where the Runes will neither conflict nor unite. Our current state would be the Runes conflicting in order to come together (Chaos=Conflict). We will soon be in a state where the Runes are One (Order=Harmony). If there is no opposing elements, Humanistic or Planetary, then we are in a state of Order. But that also means that there is no World and no Mankind.

Mankind has 44 "Humanistic Elements". Each one is opposing to another, and only one. This will give you 22 that have an opposite attraction to one other. Such as Cruelty and Compasion, Life and Death, Strength and Weakness, ect. If these Elements no longer exist, neither does Mankind.

The world of Suikoden can be divided into 5 elements. These of course are known to us as Fire, Water, Earth, Lightning, and Wind. One of these Elements will oppose to 2, and be in harmony with the other 2 (ex. Fire will oppose water and wind, but is in harmony to earth and lightning) this is how we get our Rune Unites. But if these Elements no longer exist, neither does the World.
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Song Jiang

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

from chaos springs life so chaos is a self sustaining thing. and to get of topic it seems funny to me that the person most recognized to bring choas (yuber) has the eightfold rune with in the buddist religion the eightfold path is represented my the dharma wheel which in suikoden is another word they use for order.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And "eightfold" can also come from various other sources, including a symbol of chaos in a number of religions.
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Song Jiang

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

thats cool what religions i would like to look into that.
im interested in these sort of things.
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