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Iron Man (Warning: here be spoilers, yarr)
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Tullaryx

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Starslasher wrote:
Yeah, i remember that part. Although it was about that arc reactor heart thingy more than the suit itslef, isn't it? After all, i don't think any real human being can make a computer board at the age of 6, much less someone five times that age!


Well, I don't know if there's one out there or not who can create a computer board at the age of 6, but who knows. I just read an article about a 12 year-old who is a sophomore in college and maintaining an A+ GPA.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I finally got around to seeing the movie.

Frankly, I enjoyed the parts with Tony Stark more than the parts with any of the suits. Character wise, he's a whole hell of a lot more entertaining than Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, Bruce Banner, Clark Kent, or anyone else.

However, Iron Man doesn't even have a truly identifiable villain. All he can ever really do is fix his own fuckups (like in this movie) or sponge off of more popular villains of other heroes.

All that said, given that a good 70% of the movie was Tony Stark being Tony Stark, I liked it a lot. The Iron Man parts were cool because it was mostly those initial scenes of superheroes first showing up are really cool in every movie (I got equally giddy when Superman saved the plane in Superman Returns).

Also, I have to say, that last minute, that was the best ending in any superhero movie I have ever seen.

Bar none. Not even close.
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Agahnim

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Amyral wrote:
However, Iron Man doesn't even have a truly identifiable villain.


I guess the Mandarin isn't that identifiable for those not familiar with Iron Man, but I would say the same of Ra's al Ghul for Batman; and they made a pretty damn good film out of that (although I guess they had the Scarecrow too). They also seem to be using The Abomination in the new Hulk film, and I wouldn't call him identifiable either. It should be a challenge for the film makers to try and make these villains much more identifiable. I think a lot of people might struggle to pick a truly identifiable villain for a number of Marvel characters. Where Mandarin is concerned, they could use Ultimo or someone to try and build him up.
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Tullaryx

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hell, I say bring in Fing Fang Foom!
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Agahnim wrote:
Amyral wrote:
However, Iron Man doesn't even have a truly identifiable villain.


I guess the Mandarin isn't that identifiable for those not familiar with Iron Man, but I would say the same of Ra's al Ghul for Batman; and they made a pretty damn good film out of that (although I guess they had the Scarecrow too). They also seem to be using The Abomination in the new Hulk film, and I wouldn't call him identifiable either. It should be a challenge for the film makers to try and make these villains much more identifiable. I think a lot of people might struggle to pick a truly identifiable villain for a number of Marvel characters. Where Mandarin is concerned, they could use Ultimo or someone to try and build him up.


I think that's always been a weakness of Marvel comics, once you leave Spiderman, most people would begin to get hard pressed to name villains that would be recognizable to casual fans. You have Dr. Doom and Magneto, of course. Silver Surfer maybe work initially, and maybe Galactus. But tell me, if you told a casual fan "Hulk is fighting the Abomination in his next movie," how many would ask "Who?" I'm sure they'd know who the Incredible Hulk is solely off of basic pop-culture knowledge, but would have no clue who he ever fought.

Iron Man is the same way. I don't think it's a slight to the character himself. I'd be stunned if Mandarin wasn't the villain a sequel (granted, I think the biggest charm, Tony being Tony, would likely be lost some in a sequel), but really, I think the normal movie goer would respond to the Mandarin the same way as they'll respond to the Abomination. That doesn't mean that Mandarin couldn't be a good movie villain, I just think it's not really a recognizable conflict for casual fans.

If I had to venture a guess why, I think it'd be because how Marvel deals with their heroes. They've set out to make internal conflicts more prominent than DC (aside from modern Batman). While this may have made more of their heroes more recognizable, it's done the opposite for their villains, where DC has had to consistently put them center stage. When you adapt them for the big screen, this tends to show some, I think. Exactly like Hulk with the Abomination, the first movie was more or less Hulk being Hulk. Now they have to put a villain out there and it's one that most people have no idea who he is.

Of course, I should note that when I talk about casual fan recognition, we're dealing with a relatively few number of villains that I think they would recognize (And I would agree that Ras Al'Ghul wouldn't be recognizable. Hell, I watched nearly every episode of the 90's Batman and Superman cartoons, and I didn't even remember the guy. I'd venture a list (as a fairly casual fan myself), but I think that'd stray from the point.
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Tullaryx

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wait, you watched all the Paul Dini Batman episodes and never saw one with Ras Al'Ghul. They had entire story arcs with Ras, his daughter Talia and the Lazarus Pits messing with Batman. As for the villains in Marvel not as recognizable I would have to agree but then again the casual fan will most likely go to see the movie for the hero and not the villain. I think any villain in Marvel can be done well and memorable if written well and performed by a talented actor.

An example of an obscure villain who ended up being one of the better performances in a Marvel movie I choose Stryker from Xmen II. In the comics he was quite obscure despite being the main antagonist on one of the X-Men's well-regarded story arcs, "God Loves, Man Kills." In the movie his character was well-written and casting Brian Cox to portray him was a smart move. I can see the same being done for Mandarin or any future Marvel villain.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tullaryx wrote:
Wait, you watched all the Paul Dini Batman episodes and never saw one with Ras Al'Ghul. They had entire story arcs with Ras, his daughter Talia and the Lazarus Pits messing with Batman. As for the villains in Marvel not as recognizable I would have to agree but then again the casual fan will most likely go to see the movie for the hero and not the villain. I think any villain in Marvel can be done well and memorable if written well and performed by a talented actor.

An example of an obscure villain who ended up being one of the better performances in a Marvel movie I choose Stryker from Xmen II. In the comics he was quite obscure despite being the main antagonist on one of the X-Men's well-regarded story arcs, "God Loves, Man Kills." In the movie his character was well-written and casting Brian Cox to portray him was a smart move. I can see the same being done for Mandarin or any future Marvel villain.


I saw him, but he didn't make enough of an impact on me to remember him long term. After I looked him up again, I remembered seeing him, but it didn't really bring a lot up. As a character, I didn't think he was that memorable.

For the rest of it, I agree. However, there's a problem with that, that problem being that you can really only do that in the first movie. After that, you have to have a good villain to carry it. You have to have the villain do their part. If you don't have that villain, it's not going to be as entertaining. You can't redo the scenes of, say, Tony Stark figuring out the technology of the suit, or of him admitting he was Iron Man, or any of the other scenes that made him interesting. You have to rely on the villain.

That doesn't mean they all have to be as recognizable as The Joker. Obscure villains doesn't mean they can't be entertaining (I didn't like it personally, but Stryker is a great example, while I'd say Silver Surfer is an example of a character people may know, but not care about if the rest of it is lousy), but the hero can only do so much without the good villain behind him. That's why I think it's a problem to not have that directly identifiable villain, it's harder to make people care when they don't at least recognize who a guy is. It's possible, just a lot harder.
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