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Harmonia = Southern American States?
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Splendid Monkey

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I always thought Harmonia was loosely based on the Holy Roman Empire. Apart from the similarities mentioned before I find their attitude toward their enemies to be quite similar: if you surrender you retain a certain degree of autonomy (2nd class citizens) and the right to practice your own religion. If you choose to resist you become slaves (3rd class citizens).

Germany would also be possible but I can't see many similarities with the Southern States or the USSR.
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iscalio




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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Splendid Monkey wrote:
I always thought Harmonia was loosely based on the Holy Roman Empire. [...]

Germany would also be possible.


Just a historical note: The Holy Roman Empire is Germany. Germany was called the Holy Roman Empire for about thousand years between ~800 and ~1800.

You meant the ancient imperial domain of Rome, the Roman Empire.


The remainder of the western half of the Roman Empire eventually evolved into the Holy Roman Empire, thus the similar name. The 'Holy' was added because by then the Roman Empire had become Christian.
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LTM




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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

iscalio wrote:
Splendid Monkey wrote:
I always thought Harmonia was loosely based on the Holy Roman Empire. [...]

Germany would also be possible.


Just a historical note: The Holy Roman Empire is Germany. Germany was called the Holy Roman Empire for about thousand years between ~800 and ~1800.

You meant the ancient imperial domain of Rome, the Roman Empire.


The remainder of the western half of the Roman Empire eventually evolved into the Holy Roman Empire, thus the similar name. The 'Holy' was added because by then the Roman Empire had become Christian.




Yes, until the Goths rebelled. Rome also had various internal conflicts within its own political structure, and even had slaves such as Spartacus rebel and fight back against them with an army of gladiators. And Harmonia itself has had internal disputes, which led to the creation of the Scarlet Moon Empire, and then the eventual creation of the Highland Kingdom as well as the disappearance of Hikusaak.

I personally think Murayama had wanted to base them more on Germany, with its land size more like Russia. The names and the whole "pure race" thing are evidence of this, however I think this may have been the conflict that caused Mr. Murayama to leave Konami. Harmonia felt more like Rome in Suikoden III, and as I recall Murayama left because of a dispute over how Harmonia was to be represented. They seemed much more civil in Suikoden III, and more brutal and bloodthirsty in Suikoden II (not to mention how Sasarai's age was changed. ::cough:: ).
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Splendid Monkey

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

@iscalio & LTM

Thanx for the historical notes, guys. I indeed meant the old Roman Empire. My knowlege of the Romans hardly exceeds what I've seen in the Asterix comics. :D

That said I think the Harmonians are still pretty damn aggressive in the Suikoden III manga.

LTM wrote:
(not to mention how Sasarai's age was changed. ::cough:: ).


Sasarai's age? Was there ever any mention of his age in Suikoden II?
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ferrouslupusrex

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Sasarai's age?
Was there ever any mention of his age in Suikoden II?


30 something. Probably an exact equivalent with Luc's.

As for it being based on Germany:
I find that doubtful.

As for being based on Rome:
That's an excellent idea. I was so concerned with 'coclus' that I forgot the term was originally ROMAN in origin. The Romans had a society that perfectly matches with Harmonia. It uses conscripts from it's invaded territories.

The only thing that bothers me though is that Harmonia does not follow the roman way of offering citizenship to slaves who had dutifully served in the military. That and it's whole eye/hair color bias (it's just probably a reference to extreme racial prejudice of several empire driven countries).
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Metallingus

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Vessol pretty much hit the nail on the head with his post. On a broad sense, we really can't tie Harmonia to any single culture, as at one point or another different countries have parallelized culturally, politically, and philosophically.

Harmonia: First Class Citizenry, on grounds of eye and hair color
India: Brahmin/Brahman, on grounds of religious and educational affinity
Romans: Patricians, on grounds of noble birth and land ownership
Marxism: Bourgeoisie, on grounds of owning businesses that generate income

And so on. All of these, of course, have their counterparts in the lower classes/castes. The Indians had the Sudras, the Romans the Plebians, and Marxism has the Proletariat. Given the vast similarities between class divisions, IMO it would be right to say that Harmonia does not have a single basis, as far as cultures go.
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kuwaizair

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Raww Le Klueze wrote:
As far as I know his reference to Russia was only in reference to size and location on the world map.

And hate to break this to you but Kobolds are non-humans. That's kinda why we call them Kobolds instead of humans.


diddo, I mean if we really had kobolds do you really think the'd be allowed to vote, sentance is in question here, its biased aginst non-human sentients.
they walk and talk like humans but look like animals people keep as pets(or eat)

Last time a topic like this was made Harmonia was related to the roman empire(I guess in the conqureing sence)

well, who says it can't be a hogdpodge? thats what you do to many fictional places right?
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Karushifa




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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ferrouslupusrex wrote:
The only thing that bothers me though is that Harmonia does not follow the roman way of offering citizenship to slaves who had dutifully served in the military.

Well, in a way, that's pretty much the deal that Harmonia was offering Le Buque: if you serve us in our military operation (with the mantors, of course), your people will be eligible for second-class citizenship. This is why Franz for example was so adamant about not rebelling against Harmonia - his understanding was that this was a much better position for them than third-class citizenship, which amounted to slavery, and without the risk of being wholesale wiped out like the Safir or other resistant peoples. I suspect that somewhere along the line Queen also worked her way up to second-class citizenship through service, since her clan was most likely enslaved when Harmonia subjugated it.
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Wolf Stew

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harmonia is akin to Russia, circa 1900 (before World War I and the Communist revolution). The Russia of that time was huge yet remote (like Harmonia) and lagged behind the rest of the Western world, in terms of political and social structure, and economic development. And while Russia wasn't a theocracy (like Harmonia seems to be), the Orthodox Church did play a big role in politics there.

Russia was more or less seen as a great, dumb giant, in a period of long, slow decline. That's very much what Harmonia seems to be too.
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Karushifa




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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wolf Stew wrote:
Harmonia is akin to Russia, circa 1900 (before World War I and the Communist revolution). The Russia of that time was huge yet remote (like Harmonia) and lagged behind the rest of the Western world, in terms of political and social structure, and economic development. And while Russia wasn't a theocracy (like Harmonia seems to be), the Orthodox Church did play a big role in politics there.

Russia was more or less seen as a great, dumb giant, in a period of long, slow decline. That's very much what Harmonia seems to be too.

Harmonia doesn't seem as much a pure theocracy to me as much as a country built around the cult-like devotion to a single figure: Hikusaak. While the Harmonians do conquer and subjugate many different peoples, as far as we know none of it is done in the name of a power any higher than Hikusaak himself (or herself, or whatever Hikusaak really is). Whether Hikusaak is a god to Harmonians or simply an extremely charismatic, corporeal figure (akin to someone like Kim Jong-Il), we don't really know. However, this doesn't rule out the possibility that Harmonia is a theocratic state like Ancient Egypt, where the pharaoh was worshiped as a living god.
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ferrouslupusrex

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Queen's family was aristocratic sanadians. She has no need to work her butt off to attain the 2nd class citizenship status.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmmm....I haven't seen any evidence that Harmonians worship Hikusaak. He was a Hero of days past and the head of the Church and Harmonian goverment, but I've never heard anyone refer to him as a God. Take away his True Rune, and he dies after 72 years like the rest of us (or whatever the average lifespan is these days).

Hikusaak seems to be like George Steinbrenner. He's the boss, but he doesn't seem to take an active role anymore (assuming he's even still alive....didn't he disappear ages ago, or something?).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wolf Stew wrote:
Hmmm....I haven't seen any evidence that Harmonians worship Hikusaak. He was a Hero of days past and the head of the Church and Harmonian goverment, but I've never heard anyone refer to him as a God. Take away his True Rune, and he dies after 72 years like the rest of us (or whatever the average lifespan is these days).

Hikusaak seems to be like George Steinbrenner. He's the boss, but he doesn't seem to take an active role anymore (assuming he's even still alive....didn't he disappear ages ago, or something?).

I'm not saying absolutely that Harmonia worships him as a god. What I was thinking of was something akin to countries like PRC under Mao, or North Korea under Kim Jong-Il, where society is built around the cult-like admiration of a leader, but not strictly a theocracy. My main evidence for this is that Harmonia doesn't seem to carry out their various military and intel-gathering operations for the sake of some holy crusade, but rather, ostensibly for locating and collecting the True Runes for Hikusaak. When a new population is subjugated, it's not under the pretext of "saving" or civilizing the conquered (think colonial-era Spain, which pretty much WAS a theocracy), but rather, to make them into slaves and to expand Harmonia's foothold in the world.

If the Harmonian "church" does have any influence in politics, it apparently pales in comparison to the will of Hikusaak - and we know so little about this figure that it's difficult to say how things operate at the top of Harmonian society. Some people think that Hikusaak doesn't even exist anymore, but if that's the case, then SOMEone has to still be delegating orders in his name. Hikusaak just hasn't been *seen* in a number of years (which suggests that he can still be heard, I guess?), there's no concrete proof that he vanished completely.
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Wolf Stew

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, I understand what you mean now.

Going off on a slight tangent, even though true runes grant agelessness, it seems like they gradually destroy the bearer's love for life. Long-time true rune bearers often become sad, morose people who see very little joy in life. If Hikusaak was similarly affected, it's possible that he just went off to die on his own, robbed of his will to live anymore.

So even though true runes grant agelessness, it might be almost impossible to bear them forever, because they tend to gradually destroy your will to live. And in Hikusaak's case (assuming he went off to die quietly), the institutions he left behind have continued to rule in his name. Hopefully someday we'll find out the truth someday, whatever it is! There are far too many unanswered mysteries in the Suikoden world.
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