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Ujitsuna
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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It still isn't in any of the books though, only stated by the author as an afterthought, I think that is why parents won't overreact, it's only big news to the current fans really. |
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Gil-galad
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really think it's an 'afterthought' Uji-- all of Rowling's main characters in the novel have tons of background information that she has written that has never actually made it to the pages of the book.
Also, this little revelation adds some more grounds to be suspicious of a Dumbledore Biography type of novel. She has only stated she will write no more books about Harry Potter-- not that she will write no more children's fiction books that take place in that world, or pertaining to other characters in the series. In fact, in one interview she stated that a Dumbledore biography would be a very interesting novel to write. So who knows.
Either way, this piece of information isn't all that surprising. He was a single eccentric old man. I don't think she was trying to make some sort of political statement-- that's just a part of the character that she made as Dumbledore. I highly doubt she'd just tack something like that on afterwards. _________________
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Geddoe
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
Because parents are quite often irrational idiots. |
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Hawk-chan. >.> :)
Okay, actual parent stepping in to post here.
I've only now started to read HP to my 5 year old, and to be honest with you, Rowling's announcement is an afterthought, really. I mean, who actually reads the books to find out who's 'out' and who isn't?? Okay, Dumbledore's thought of hitting it with Grindewald. May the world stop spinning on its axis because of that revelation or something else equally as dramatic. For those of us who actually can manage a mature perspective on the books, this won't change a single thing about how we look at the books 20 years from now - Dumbledore, regardless of his sexual orientation or not, will always be the guy that did his best, up to the very end and beyond to protect Harry and the institution of Hogwarts itself, end of story.
I really can't see the fuss about this - the bigger shock was that this was even a headline on both cnn.com and foxnews.com. Don't we have other stuff to worry about than the sexual orientation of a fictional character? _________________
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Tullaryx
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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For those still thinking its not canon should just go to Wiki and look up the term. Here's one where canon can also mean things spoken and written by the creator that is never published.
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In some fictional universes, interviews and other communications from authors are also considered canonical — like the letters of J. R. R. Tolkien with relation to Middle-earth; also items such as interviews, Internet chat sessions, and websites (e.g., the website of J. K. Rowling in relation to the Harry Potter series). This usually only happens in cases where all works in the universe have the same author. |
If I remember correctly there's only been one author of the Harry Potter series. Creators of a fictional universe always determine what is and what is not canon. It is their intellectual property. So, to say that J.K. Rowling's outing of Dumbledore doesn't make it canon do not know the concept of what is canon and what is not.
As for why she did so, read the article more clearly. David Yates who is directing the sixth film had inserted in the script something about Dumbledore having a girl he was interested in in the past. She pretty much told Yates why that cannot be. With the nature if the internet and how secrets on the sets have a tendency to leak she pretty much making sure she had control of how the information is disseminated.
I don't think outing Dumbledore would sell more or less books. Those who already have the books will not suddenly go out and buy the set again. Those who were on the fence about starting the series will probably buy it anyway whether Dumbledore was outed or not. And the religious groups who will probably point to the book sas corrupting the young already been saying that due to its concept of witchcraft. I think one gay character, no matter how important to the series, will make any difference to these groups. _________________
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Amyral
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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I have to disagree with everyone who is saying what is or isn't canon. This isn't like a videogame series with a bunch of different programmers, writers and developers, it's a series in a universe created and maintained by one person. That person has control over what's canon and what isn't, that's reality, they have complete creative control. That's what it means to create a universe.
Of course, this applies when there's one author, but they created the story, they determine what goes on, regardless of what anyone else wants. If you look in the Expanded Universe for Star Wars, nothing is considered Canon unless there is an official statement of it, regardless of what is written/programmed/illustrated etc. Lucas has retained complete canonical control over his product. The only thing fans can be assured of as being completely cannon are the movies. Rowling is the same way. She created the character, he's hers to do with whatever she wanted. Even if there was evidence to the contrary, she can create whatever holes she wishes because it's her world to do with as she pleases.
Different universe have established different levels of canon, to be sure, depending on what's required. Star Wars has it's own canon-tree. The movies are at the top, with various levels of canon underneath, down to comic books which often are not canonical. As far as I'm aware, Star Trek doesn't treat the books as canon at all. However, this isn't a case of that, it's a case of one person who has creative control over their work. Readers can ignore it if they want, since it's not directly stated, but that doesn't make it less canon. Just like you wouldnt' tell Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas what is or isn't canon in the universes they made, you can't tell Rowling that.
It wasn't hinted at the books, I really just can't figure out why it's surprising. How many of you knew the sexual preferences of your school teachers/administrators? Not just whether they were gay or straight, but the details of their sexual life? It's not really something that would come out in everyday conversation between teachers and students, nor it is anything that would come from necessary descriptions or actions that would be likely to be seen by the main characters. People have personal lives that aren't open books to their students, children, etc. It's also not like it'd be something physically obvious by their interactions.
But really, whether she does some hint or not on it doesn't matter, she has the ability to control the facts of the universe as author and creator. To be blatantly blunt, I doubt people would have a hard time accepting it as canon if it was if she revealed that Dumbledore had a true love that was, I don't know, killed in the past or something.
As for it being used for publicity, I don't think so, I think she was just answering a specific question that was posed to her. She doesn't really need to do anything controversial to gain publicity, she could drop a napkin and it'd be reported on. I don't think this is likely to sell any more books, most people who want them already have them. |
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Timbo
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Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if its an afterthought. I think she left it out because it doesn't seem relevant to anything going on in any of the books. I mean, how strange would it be if Harry is screaming about Voldemort coming back and then Dumbledore said "Oh, by the way, I'm a homosexual." _________________ "There is no normal life, there's just life. Now get on with it" |
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Shrew
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Well, Rita Skeeter's book would have been the perfect place to slip it in. Or even a certain point toward the end where Dumbledore's history with Grindelwald is discussed. But I doubt Rowling wanted that to become the focal point of the book as soon as it came out.
Or maybe homosexuality doesn't exist in the wizarding world. They could be like many older cultures and not differentiate between heterosexuality/homosexuality, so it's sort of a non-issue. _________________
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Luceit
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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I don't see how the fact that Dumbledore is gay is going to make much of a difference to most of us. To me, it seemed more like some kind of afterthought and since the series is already over, I don't pay too much attention to it. My initial response to this when I saw it in yesterday's newspaper was: Oh, that's quite a surprise.
Would parents see the books in a negative light assuming that they have prejudices against homosexuals? They might since Dumbledore is an integral character to the series and he could be seen as a role model, but on the other hand, if the parents simply hide this information from their children, nothing big is going to happen.
As for fanfiction, er...judging by the massive crapload of HP fanfics in existence, I cannot bring myself to believe that there has not been even one single slash fanfic involving Dumbledore and Grindelwald prior to this. That said, I completely know where is J.K Rowling coming from when she said "Oh, imagine the fanfiction that will come out of this". *Cough* _________________
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Filipe
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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You know the thing about author's privilege is that she could make up just about anything about any of her characters, claim it to be the truth and really there is nothing we could say or do about it. She could literally go and say for example the "Ron is a Phytophiliac(dont ask lets just say it involves plants)" and really as dumbfounded as all her fans might be there really is nothing we could do to dispute it. Now I am in no way comparing being gay to being that term that I used by any means at all, it was merely an example, and I remember hearing the term in a movie once.(No not that kind of movie) We just have to take it at face value and enjoy the books anyway, the critics she will have for this will be the same ones that have been on her books all along anyway. I am sure she is more the used to it by now, but for her fans, it really changes nothing at all, I still plan to read the books(only read book 1 but have watched the movies so far) _________________
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Hawk Thanatos
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Geddoe wrote: |
Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
Because parents are quite often irrational idiots. |
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Hawk-chan. >.> :) |
Hehe, don't worry, with that post you've proven yourself to be very wise and not at all irrational, I'm sure you're a great mum. :P
I don't think you can say that this isn't canon, it is the author who said it after all. Still, I think it would have been better if J.K Rowling just left us to draw our own conclusions. |
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Tullaryx
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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That's the thing about fans and the creator of the universe for these fans. No matter what she does people will complain because they think they have some sort of personal ownership of these characters and the world they inhabit. Fans have no ownership whatsoever of the [i]Harry Potter[/i[] universe and have no reason to complain about what she does or does not with it. If she can kill off certain characters in the past books and piss fans off yet still these same fans continue to buy her products then people need to get over the outing of one character and move on. Just be glad she's even adding more to the mythos of the Potterverse instead of moving on to other things. _________________
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Hawk Thanatos
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Tullaryx wrote: |
That's the thing about fans and the creator of the universe for these fans. No matter what she does people will complain because they think they have some sort of personal ownership of these characters and the world they inhabit. Fans have no ownership whatsoever of the Harry Potter universe and have no reason to complain about what she does or does not with it. If she can kill off certain characters in the past books and piss fans off yet still these same fans continue to buy her products then people need to get over the outing of one character and move on. Just be glad she's even adding more to the mythos of the Potterverse instead of moving on to other things. |
People can always complain and it can end up being a good thing (sometimes). Imagine if no one had complained about Suikoden IV. But anyway, I think fans do have some ownership over the characters in Harry Potter and any piece of fiction, when a person buys a book they invest in the characters and story. A good author will honour that by remaining true to the characters, bad authors will do things like write scenes where characters act completely contrary to the personality previously given them. I think that J.K Rowling has done a good job and that Dumbledore being gay really doesn't conflict with the rest of the story in any way but some people will disagree (because they're prejudice or whatever) and they'll be the ones who complain.
Last edited by Hawk Thanatos on Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Amyral
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hawk Thanatos wrote: |
People can always complain and it can end up being a good thing (sometimes). Imagine if no one had complained about Suikoden IV. But anyway, I think fans do have some ownership over the characters in Harry Potter and any piece of fiction, when a person buys a book they invest in the characters and story. A good author will honour that by remaining true to the characters, bad authors will do things like write scenes where characters act completely contrary to the personality previously given them. I do think however that J.K Rowling has done a good job and that Dumbledore being gay really doesn't conflict with the rest of the story in any way. |
I disagree entirely with the notion that fans have any ownership over someone else's creative ventures, or that the author/creator has any obligation to cater to them. Buying books from an author doesn't give you any ownership over the characters and story, it gives you ownership of the paper and cover that you just bought. Personal investment doesn't mean your opinion on what should happen makes a difference. You're part of everyone else who has no bearing on the story and shouldn't have a bearing on the story. The creator shouldn't cater to the fan's visions of the characters if their personal vision differs. It's their creation, they own it all (well, that is if they don't have a contract that shares it with a publishing company). If they take a new direction of characters, that's their prerogative. They've earned that right. The fans have no claim to it.
A good author won't cater to the fan's collective whim on what will happen, a good author will write good stories even if the fans want and/or thought it would go in an entirely different direction. That doesn't mean a good writer will shit on his or her current fans to spite them, it means what the fans want have no real bearing on what will happen with the story, characters, etc. The fans don't determine who a character is, the author does.
That doesn't mean the fans can't complain, they can complain. It just means that their own personal visions don't hold any weight on who the characters are. They don't determine what's canon and what isn't. If they want to, they can write their own novel. |
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Scarlet Assassin
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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This is just another case of Rowling giving in to the fanfiction community. I hate all the Harry Potter books, and I have since day one. The fact that the author added an epilogue in which the most popular fanfiction pairs got together, and then to hear her announce that a character with no mention of sexuality in the series is indeed gay followed by the exclamation "Think of the fanfiction!" is simple proof that J.K. Rowling is in no way a legitimate author who has any pride or respect for her own shoddily written work. She's doing what the fans want and taking their "Opinions" into consideration instead of going with her own instincts on the characters, and that brings me to a brand new level of disdain for the series and its author. She's turning her characters into needless piles of fan-pandering garbage, and supposedly "Poignant" psuedo-political figures for equal rights. Way to be WAY behind the trend on this one Rowling. _________________
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Timbo
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Scarlet Assassin wrote: |
This is just another case of Rowling giving in to the fanfiction community. I hate all the Harry Potter books, and I have since day one. The fact that the author added an epilogue in which the most popular fanfiction pairs got together, and then to hear her announce that a character with no mention of sexuality in the series is indeed gay followed by the exclamation "Think of the fanfiction!" is simple proof that J.K. Rowling is in no way a legitimate author who has any pride or respect for her own shoddily written work. She's doing what the fans want and taking their "Opinions" into consideration instead of going with her own instincts on the characters, and that brings me to a brand new level of disdain for the series and its author. She's turning her characters into needless piles of fan-pandering garbage, and supposedly "Poignant" psuedo-political figures for equal rights. Way to be WAY behind the trend on this one Rowling. |
I don't really see how this is political or see her claiming anything political. She doesn't mention any lack of rights or laws or civil rights- just that a character is gay. I mean, if some one said that Socrates was gay, I don't think they'd be making a political message.
And as for all the character pairings being ones predicted in fan fiction, they are also the ones most hinted at in the books. I think the fans saw what was coming, not her catering to fans.
Sage can save the world with a 12-inch piece of string, jar of miracle whip, and a gardening magazine, depending on the issue! _________________ "There is no normal life, there's just life. Now get on with it" |
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