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Sage

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I feel that I need to explain a few things regarding my posts. First, I get the impression some people think I'm mad. If my posts come off as if I seem pissed, I apologize. I'm not angry; it would take a great deal more than this to make me mad. Honestly, it's my writing style and it's not the first time it's come off that way.

Saben wrote:
It's nice to see that my first post was ignored entirely! Personally I thought it included some interesting ideas.


I read it. If I responded it would've went something like this: "___ was a good point, I have no argument for that. I don't agree with ___, but I have nothing to back up my statement." I think that would've been a useless post since I had nothing more than that to say, so I didn't do it.

UberYuber wrote:
FF6Sage wrote:

I'm just trying to draw a connection between punishment and crime. It's very clear that if you make an action/item illegal, fewer people will violate that law.


That is possible. Why else would there be 10 commandments? It gives people moral guidelines and consequences for actions. However, determining that they are directly linked in this way is nearly impossible. I'm not talking about rational thought here either. What I'm talking about is the boy in question. If the crime meant he would have to endure torture from his worst enemy it wouldn't have stopped him. I'm sure the kid had no prior knowledge to what can/can't happen to him if he murders another human being. It's the absence of rational though that makes my argument make sense.


I was talking about the general and you're talking about the individual. Point taken. As for my point, it has been determined, which is why I brought it up. We went over it in my econ class last week and I figured I might as well try to use some of the stuff I'm learning in there.

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Looking for deterrents may be absurd, but having them is certainly not absurd, but necessary.


I'm not saying that we should burn down the system of laws and punishment... holy crap man... way to read things literally. What I'm saying is that the problem is not looking for new ways to punish people but looking for ways to prevent rage from occuring by attempting to understand.


I always read things literally; can't help it. Your post made it sound like, to me anyway, that you think deterrents don't matter. However, without laws in place, there would be more crime, but as to the extent of the increase, I can't comment. Sorry I misread it.

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I agree that everything around a person makes the person, but not everything around him has the same impact on him. There are bound to be many things around him that had far more significant impact than others. However, I had nothing to do with him. I influenced him not; not now, not ever. I never met him and was never near him. I do not want to be responsible (and am not resonsible) for something/someone I had nothing to do with at all. I am not putting all the blame at the kid's feet, just most of it. If he can't control his anger, it's not my fault. I'm not going to speculate as to what went through his mind since I will never know and never care to know in all honesty. Whatever his reasoning/lack thereof, it's not my problem, it's his and the legal system's now. What I'm getting out of your reasoning is punish everyone for the actions of one person. No offense, but to me, that's not right. It's like how a whole class of students is punished because of one kid breaking a rule. I didn't like it when I was in grade school and I don't like it now.


For someone claiming to be so uninvolved, you sure used the word "I" a lot. Listen man... if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem --George W. Bush. j/k Seriously, until society as a whole wants to consider why things are happening the way they are, I will continue to blame my neighbors for everything that happens around me. It gives me great mental discomfort to know that so many people can be caring about the wrong things and until the general public cares about preventing their children from becoming psychopaths and victims to inner rage, we will always ALL be to blame for it. Take your place in line, you belong there.


I used "I" a lot to emphasize my lack of responsibilty for the kid and I don't refer to myself in the third person (or second for that matter) which pretty much leaves "I." I've made my point, you've made yours. We obviously believe the other is wrong and we're not going to change each others' minds, so I'll leave it at that.

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As far as the kid's punishment is concerned, I'm against involuntary experimentation.


*laugh*... nevermind


What? :?

Njord wrote:
FF6Sage, I'm not saying that you yourself should be blamed for this murder when you aren't even any way close to the kid.

But if you were then you too are to be blamed.

If you see a kid hitting another one, and do nothing about it, ignoring it completely then you are to be blamed for what happened, you at least could've stop it in any way.


This I agree with. When you say punish society, I think society means everyone everywhere, which is why I disagreed so readily.
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Starslasher

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FF6Sage wrote:
I always read things literally; can't help it. Your post made it sound like, to me anyway, that you think deterrents don't matter. However, without laws in place, there would be more crime, but as to the extent of the increase, I can't comment. Sorry I misread it.


It becomes a bit of a problem. Reading things literally, that is. So it might help if people just say j/k or that they were being sarcastic. It's sometimes hard to tell when one is actually joking.
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Njord

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

UberYuber wrote:
For the most part I agree with you except for this statement and a few others.


Of course, that doesn't mean he/she won't commit a crime, but knowing what is right and what is wrong will help them to choose, what they choose at the end is their problem.

And of course, knowing right from wrong doesn't always stop a crime, as you said, there are other factors.
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Noot

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't know why people are so surprised by this kind of thing. To me, sadly, it's just a part of life. Kids sometimes kill other kids: their siblings, their classmates, their friends. Sometimes the child's intention is to harm this person, other times they just mimic something they've seen demonstrated before and wind up killing someone on accident. And just to clarify, I am NOT saying that violence on TV or video games results in violent behaviors in kids, but the kid who did a wrestling move on his little sister in Florida a few years ago got the idea from TV and wanted to try it out on his sibling. He wound up killing her, but I don't believe that was his intent. In that case, the children were going unsupervised, and the older boy never had the wrestling he saw on TV explained to him--that it was done by professionals who know the proper techniques and not something to be tried unless you were properly supervised.

I believe in the case of the child whom this thread is about, his intention was to harm this other kid in a moment of blind rage. His death was an unfortunate consequence. The proper punishment, IMO, is to put him in juvenile hall until he turns 18 then release him on probation.

What we all need to understand here is that these cases are rare in occurence. The majority of children DO grow up with good values and good parenting, but unfortunately some children go unsupervised or unchecked and bad things can result. There will always be deviants, and there will always be accidents. Unfortunately, you never see the list of all the straight A students across the country in the nightly news. You see these isolated cases of violence, and so you think that is the norm. As long as you understand that children who kill other children (accidentally or intentionally) are the minority, then you can feel grateful that most children have good heads on their shoulders.
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St. Ajora

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
What we all need to understand here is that these cases are rare in occurence. The majority of children DO grow up with good values and good parenting, but unfortunately some children go unsupervised or unchecked and bad things can result. There will always be deviants, and there will always be accidents. Unfortunately, you never see the list of all the straight A students across the country in the nightly news. You see these isolated cases of violence, and so you think that is the norm. As long as you understand that children who kill other children (accidentally or intentionally) are the minority, then you can feel grateful that most children have good heads on their shoulders


I disagree. Although a child murderer isn't the norm as you say, there's plenty of other juevenile acts that occur daily, and have been on the rise since the last generation. Unless you're talking like, kids under 12, then you may be right, however, there are still lots of kids out there who succumb to peer pressure, who alienate other kids, who do not know our version of right and wrong, etc. A little boy that I babysit has just gotten suspended (for the third time in a year, grade 4) for calling another boy the n-word, because he was called a white boy. That really has nothing to do with anything, but it shocks me that that type of attitude has made its way to elementary kids. I can only imagine how often that type of stuff happens elsewhere. And he's a good kid too. Good mother. I don't think that happened because of poor parenting. I don't know how stuff like that happens.

Anyway, my first statement was aimed at the 12- 16 group of "children". I still stand by my point above, when I addressed younger children, that many of them do not have good heads on their shoulders. All you have to do is walk into a high school. I was unfortunate enough to be swallowed up in such a crowd, so I hope that maybe this sort of problem was just local. But I absolutely, do not agree that most children or young adults who commit serious crimes, are isolated cases. Moving past that, I don't think that many children or young adults in my locality are aware of the world that they live in, nor have they grown up with "good values".
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Sage

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If anyone is interested, the boy got sentenced to a dentention center until he turns 25. There is the possibility for parole before then though.

The story.
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Filipe

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I find it absolutely rediculous that any child that intentionally grabbed a baseball bat, and smacked anyone on the knees and head killing them should be charged as an adult. Not only charged as an adult, but frankly it sounds like at the very least a charge of first degree manslaughter. You see, if it was merely to drive him away, and make the other kid stop bugging him, say he merely hit him once with the bat. Certainly not in the head mind you, but just hit him, that would be fine, it could be seen possibly as, over reaction to events. Assault with a deadly weapon at best. However he killed the other kid, bashing his head in with a baseball bat, that is at the very least manslaughter which is an adult charge.

Frankly if I was the parent of the other kid, I would take the judge to court for sheer stupidity in judgement, denying their child real justice. Not to mention of course, filing a lawsuit against the murdering child. This just goes to show that, the justice system all over the world needs a major overhaul.
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