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Mullenger

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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:09 am Post subject:

Exile wrote:

Quote:

Repainted Sprites: Lorelai=Odessa, Eileen=Sarah, Kamandol=Sergei, Leonardo=Varkas=Kessler (but at least they have different heads)

You missed out among the most obvious, Kage and Fuma. Kamandohl/=Sergei as well so far as I can remember.

Morgan and Pahn were also repainted sprites in battle

Arcana

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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:28 am Post subject:

Every single Luc/Sasarai fan on the planet. No, not Luc or Sasarai. Luc AND Sasarai. _________________ Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

Aurelien

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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:18 am Post subject:

Quote:

The only way the SME citizens can believe that is if they are that completely clueless of the geography of their own country. Making them idiots and ignoramuses (which makes sense for the peasantry but not the others)

The idea is not "how?", but the simple point of facts:
1. Kalekka was destroyed
2. No one knew who did it
3. City-States of Jowston and Scarlet Moon Empire were at war

Then enter the government saying that it was done by City-States of Jowston. Would you believe it? Of course, why not? Would it make sense if you think "Hey, you know what? Our own army killed our own people!!!!"

Let's compare this to the real world. Let's say you're in Los Angeles when 9/11 happened. Government said that it was the terrorists who did it. Now let's say that Osama bin Laden didn't announce to the world that he really did it. Do you have any reason to not believe what the government said? Not at all. (please don't respond to this part, it's just to compare to real life)

The point is, no one would expect their own government to kill their own people. If Kalekka massacre happened, and the people of the empire suddenly thought that it was the government who did it, then it would be a crap stuff because it would be illogical to think like that.

Quote:

What are you talking about? the castle DID not collapse. It just shook because the incarnation was releasing it's magical energies after it's defeat. it then goes back to the floor. Bajeezus.

The L'Renouille castle did collapse. If it just shook, there's no reason for Riou and co. to hurry get out of the castle and for everyone else to worry. It did not go back to the floor either because of that.

If you look at Suikosource's entry about True Runes in http://www.suikosource.com/history/truerunes/

Suikosource wrote:

1. True Runes could be quite fickle, and could abandon its bearer in favor of another, and when its bearer dies, it tends to vanish and remain hidden (within the earth or at the bottom of the ocean) until it feels like reappearing.

2. After it was defeated, it is unknown what happened to the Beast Rune.

1. It showed that because L'Renouille castle collapsed, then the "bearer died". Hence, the Beast Rune would vanish and hide somewhere in dormancy.

2. It is unknown what happened to the Beast Rune because it was not in L'Renouille anymore because it collapsed.

Quote:

It was not merely kept at bay. Jowy had sealed it. Leon unleashed it because he wanted to 'test' Riou's mettle. Hell, had he been honest he should have said this: 'Ruin my reputation why don't you? Beast rune, sic em!'

Obviously, you refused to understand Leon Silverberg's characteristic. Have a read at http://www.suikox.com/legacies/leonfaq.php I'll quote the bit that is important.

Leon FAQ wrote:

in the end released the Beast Rune once Riou arrived at L'Renouille to make sure those who were capable would destroy Luca's last weapon. He then disappeared.

Obviously, the purpose was so that Beast Rune is destroyed. If you say that Leon wanted the Beast Rune to "sic" Riou and co. .. then I ask you this. What's the point? Say that Beast Rune wins and kill Riou. Then what? Seed and Culgan are already dead. Han Cunningham died too. There was no single Blight left in Highland. Yuber had fled. Lucia had returned to Grassland. Then what? King Silverberg?

Quote:

Leon's maxim is to end conflicts as quickly as possible to minimize casualties. Had the rune beat Riou's company and goes berserk wont that mean more lives would be lost thus spoiling Leon's adherence to his so called 'code'. Face it, Leon slitting his wrist was to provide you (the player) the mandatory boss battle which was a mistake considering Leon's personality.

You still don't understand the point, do you? You are right that had Beast Rune wins, then more lives would be lost and thus spoiling Leon's adherence to the "code". But guess what? The whole point of releasing Beast Rune is because Leon KNEW that Riou CAN and WILL defeat the Beast Rune. Hence, Leon's plan was for Riou to WIN.

With no Jowy to keep the Beast Rune at bay anymore (no, it wasn't "sealed" .. keeping it at bay is correct because Jowy constantly used the power of the Black Sword Rune to do that. Hence, the scene where Jowy was exhausted), the Beast Rune will eventually be unleashed. Imagine if the Beast Rune was unleashed when Riou and co. were not there to defeat it, then the Beast Rune would killl loads of people, which would indeed go against Leon's "code". Therefore, Leon purposely released the Beast Rune to be defeated by Riou. It's as simple as that.

Quote:

Now, after I have Riou successfully eluding the two dolts, I teleported towards L’Renouille just to check if I recalled correctly that the Beast rune was still embedded on the floor (it’s been a long spell since I played this so I’m not too sure). And lo and behold! It is!

Take a gander at this:
www.geocities.com/ferrouslupusrex/beastproof.jpg
I had to rush Riou back towards the Rune’s location by his lonesome. Thankfully the champion rune proved to be a bit helpful in removing some of the enemies along the way.

1. Your picture cannot be found.
2. What you said about going back to L'Renouille and finding the Beast Rune there has been widely accepted by the general Suikoden fans as lazyness in programming the game (Suikoden II is a great game, but it has shitload of flaws, and this is one of them). You are not meant to return to L'Renouille after that part, and the programmer simply did not bother to restrict the area again afterwards.

Quote:

Face it, the developers made a mistake and misplaced the siege. It should have been from the greenhill side (with the humans' entrance on that end and the kobold entrance on lakewest's end).

It should have been designed as such if they expected us to believe this..
Greenhill--->Kiba's army--->Human two river--->winger two river--->kobold two river----> Lakewest

Your design is even less believable, unfortunately.
1. Greenhill was not occupied by Highland at that time. To "siege" from Greenhill side just means that Klaus and Kiba would be sandwiched between Greenhill and Two River. Obviously, not a good way to siege Two River when you're the one ended up being sieged instead.

2. If your design is to be used, then how would the "back up" from North Window play a part at all? The point of the whole "back up from North Window" is that they sandwiched Kiba's army to be attacked from both sides. If your design is to be used, then it would not affect Kiba's army at all as there would be no reason for them to retreat.

Quote:

In S1, you recruit Leon (that bastard) in Kalekka now why would he choose to reside in a place where he was the chief architect of it's residents slaughter?

The Leon FAQ answered that question too. He chose to live there simply because it was quiet, not because he felt any guilt or whatnot.
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Goldy

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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:35 am Post subject:

ferrouslupusrex wrote:

Quote:

Copying written works created by other people and claiming it as your own is not allowed. When doing so, you must ALWAYS use the quote tags.

I am not one to argue but this actually means I am allowed to post my own typewritten copy (copy means that I had to retype the whole thing from the game because there is no way to screenshot the whole thing) of the whole Erk's adventure's spiel.

I have not claimed that I am/was the author because the author was (obviously) some writer that Konami hired to make the whole Erk Saga. This is quite painfully obvious. I had to speed play the whole thing just to look over some of the crap that I know exists in all 3 of the earlier suikodens (1,2,3). I took the effort to type it myself because I don't see any floating copy in the 'net about Erk's saga, now why would I qoute something that I worked hard to copy (collect) from my own copy of the game to share and in effect validate my argument that Ace's (supposedly) story writing/telling skills was laughable and can be considered as crap which was the original intention of this whole thread.

I mean geeze. If I knew that there was another meaning to the rules of suikox, I would have consulted to the rules of statutory construction :*laugh*: (which would render that particular provision in the terms of agreement as well 'unconstitutional' until the proprietor/owner of the site changes it). Since I see that what I did was within the bounds of agreement, I would not qoute the whole thing purely because it was my first/only post of my own typewritten copy of a document that would have not been available otherwise.

But it seems that one of the mods deemed it fit to go ahead and qouted it let's just forget about that (even though by law you can't do that without an enacting clause and especially if there was no offense to any of the provisions of the governing rules/terms of agreement. *whines* *whines some more* but since this is just the internet and I don't want to stress about such a childish thing about the whole thing because after all it is rare that legal actions are bought regarding such trivila things)

ferrouslupusrex to quote Sage

Sage wrote:

Because it's against the rules not to do so. Whether you typed it out or copy and pasted it matters not. You are not the original writer so it is not your place to post it and gain the benefits of doing so. It's quoted now. Keep this in mind in the future.

I highlighted the important part, yes you might have spent alot of time and effort copying ( collecting as you put it ) the material but the fact still remains you are not the original writer so the quote tags apply.

ferrouslupusrex

Ferrouslupusrex

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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:55 am Post subject:

---- There you go. Riou running around the beast rune.

--------- Added as of september 9 2007 -----------------
Firstly before I begin, I would like to say Aurelien, mein freund, that this was a whole lot of fun (debating this whole thing and all). Let me just make this whole thing clear, my statements is not an attack against you but on your counter-evidence. Wokay?

Quote:

Is it really illogical to think that the government is capable of murdering it’s own citizens for one reason or another? Ummm… massacres, murders, lies, cover-ups and whitewash operations are a pretty common government policy as obviously seen in the real world. The government might not say it to their citizens face but it is pretty much part of politics/society (it’s not moral but it IS necessary at times). Any citizen with a functioning brain would question a very doubtful explanation to an event.

- Now this only applies if what was depicted as Kalekka’s position in Suiko 1 is deemed as 100% correct-

Though the two nations may be at war that does not mean that the story would be automatically believable that the whole thing can only be deemed as undeniably the fault of the invading jowston army, if we really care to analyze the situation this there was more than one possible candidate for the fallguy role of the massacre of Kalekka (besides Jowston and Barbarossa’s administration) and each would have been a lot more believable considering Kalekka’s position.

1. Geil Rugner’s loyalist/fanatics
2. Monsters that inhabit the area (Fishmen LOL, Grizzlies, ETC)
3. Local bandits/marauders in the area

but the citizens of SME believed the far fetched story that it was an INVADING army who had to cross a huge desert, commute a boat ride, pass through a inhabited SME area (Kirov) without detection to commit a massacre of a village which was so remote it had no strategic importance. So by that fact it makes a whole lot of them idiots and ignoramuses. Simple.

(And don’t tell me no one knew about who did the massacre because the perpetrators obviously did. Humphrey, the 100 man battalion, Leon, Barbarossa, Mathiu and the personal aides of Barbarossa obviously knew about it but I guess you might already know about this)

So, ergo, and for all purposes and without a shadow of a doubt, the position of Kalekka was a mistake if you don’t want the general populace of SME branded as a bunch of ignoramuses.

Now, if you want to subscribe to the idea that the position of Kalekka was correct then to make the whole lie that ‘it was the jowston army’s fault’ (that Leon perpetrated) believable by the SME citizens then that would only be true IF the general population of SME residents WERE IDIOTS AND IGNORAMUSES.
---------------------------------------

Quote:

If you look at Suikosource's entry about True Runes……….

Exactly. What was the point of Leon to send out the beast rune because it was already sealed by Jowy? The answer: Konami needed a character to release the incarnation and provide you with the big boss fight. Simple. Stupid, yes but nevertheless simple and quite logical considering the nature of how the game is designed (there is always a mandatory big boss fight for ALL rpgs not just suikoden).

Now, did this follow Leon’s supposed character? No, they made him to an asshole that refused to lose.

(And I hope you do realize/know that Seed and Culgan were only badly injured and were in fact not declared as dead at most they are missing in action)

And no offense to suikosource and most of the English suikoden fansites but I find their version of suikoden history as a tad wanting and borderline fanfiction because of the somewhat confusing nature of the subject (on some articles especially the Dunan Unification War and the Beast Rune).

Quote:

*(the pic is not yet uploaded yesterday because we had no power since the morning, so I had to rent a pc just to upload this reply yesterday)

(I had to use my English suikoden 2 copy because obviously very few of you guys can understand Japanese/German)
Look at this picture of the speech bubbles from Leon and Jowy and tell it to my face that the developers made it seem that Leon WANTED to be defeated. Also take note of the word ‘SEAL’ and ‘STOP’ because those were described to what was done to the Beast Rune.

Basically the Japanese, German and English versions are pretty much the same with a few exceptions to sentence construction (obviously because of different languages) and mistranslated Japanese pronouns because of the poor English translation. All 3 versions say that the beast rune WAS INDEED SEALED. Your mistake is that you trusted a suikoden fan site a little TOO much especially since some of their articles are borderline guesswork and may even be fan fiction.

Quote:

Eh, I obviously know of the fact that Suikoden has its share of flaws (as evidence by 120 item long whiny diatribe) this however MAY JUST (MAY JUST emphasized meaning it is only a possibility) possibly be one of them but as you may see by the speech bubbles from that bastard Leon and Jowy (the impregnator) Blight, it seems that this is NOT a flaw. It was by design (that is plot wise) that L’Renouille survives the tremors of the Incarnation going back to the floor. Add also the fact that the scene where Riou’s army was worried about him showed Riou running from an undamaged castle entrance and you will see that the only real danger to Riou and his party was (at most) falling chunks of the castle’s roof.

The whole ’you are not meant to go back to L’Renouille’ thing IS FALSE as evidenced by the mega Rune Shop that appears at the end and the fact that you still retain FULL control of Riou after you trigger Flik and Viktor’s speech. Obviously the programmers meant for you to partake of the smorgasbord of mega Elemental Runes because they bothered creating the rune mistress and her accompanying shop script (there may have been plans at first to have you continue on with your 6 man party after beating the incarnation but it was scrapped because of time constraints).

Quote:

Have you forgotten that Jowy had already defeated Greenhill during this time thru his starvation scheme? Remember that after you defeat Kiba and Klaus, Shu would tell you at your HQ that Greenhill had fallen to a intelligent highland general (Jowy, duh).

Besides even if Greenhill had not been sieged/captured, how would its pathetic army of citizen conscripts even pose a danger to a highly trained war machine like highland? If Kiba and Klaus were in any danger the highland encampment at the Muse-Greenhill border (surely you don’t believe that only 2 soldiers would be able to hold a vital checkpoint on their own ) would gladly secure their retreat.

Now as for my design, it is relatively flawless. Why? Because Riou’s army would have been marching towards the Kobold entrance while Kiba was engaging the army of two river at the greenhill side (initially it was purely Humans that were fighting and so on as evidenced in the game) when Klaus informed his father of the approaching army. Thus the whole sequence of events would have been realistic/logical.

As such there are only two possible answers to this whole controversy you would have to choose from (there is no middle ground as far as I check and believe me I checked):

1. Either the developers made a mistake in placing the siege.
2, Or the siege was correctly placed but this would mean Leon and Kiba bribed/begged Riou’s army to let their(Highland) army retreat via the boats of Lakewest (possibly as much as a squadron at a time) totally unmolested which would be unrealistic and obscenely laughable.

Quote:

The Leon FAQ answered that question too. He chose to live there simply because it was quiet, not because he felt any guilt or whatnot.

It’s quiet alright because he had a trained army/militia massacre the 15 something inhabitants of Kalekka… Yeah that’s Leon alright. He really was an ass. This might even raise the possibility that Leon might have suggested the massacre because he wanted to do his whole land grabbing thing. (Don’t take this too seriously but it sort of makes you wonder why he stayed at a dilapidated house at a village which he had ordered ‘massacred’).
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Last edited by ferrouslupusrex on Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:41 am; edited 1 time in total

Scrooge McDuck

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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:58 am Post subject:

ferrouslupusrex wrote:

Bear in mind that there is no internet in the Suikoden world. There is not even a telephone. There is no place for "massacres, murders, lies, cover-ups and whitewash operations" conspiracy theories to spread. Even in this day and age, many people still believe what thei government say. Why would Scarlet Moon Empire citizens, added with their limited means of communication, be any different?
Heck, They still need people like Templeton just to take note of towns' location and situation, so I doubt even half of the citizens know where Kalekka is.

ferrouslupusrex wrote:

Exactly. What was the point of Leon to send out the beast rune because it was already sealed by Jowy?

Do you really read the arguments given here? Jowy does not seal it eternally. He just keeps it at bay. Allow me to craft a more understandable form.

- The Beast Rune will wake up.

If

- Jowy does not continuously supress it.

However

- Jowy is gone.

Therefore

- The Beast Rune will wake up.

So what if the Beast Rune wakes? It will kill many people.
How to stop that? Destroy it.
Who can destroy it? Riou.
Why would Leon unleash the Beast Rune? To make Riou destroy it.
What if Leon does not unleash the Beast Rune? Riou will not be able to destroy it.
What if that happens? The Beast Rune would shortly after wake up anyway.
What happens then? It will kill many people, unless it is stopped.
Who can stop it? Riou.
But Riou will already be in Muse by then, a long way from Higheast! Yes, so Leon unleashes it right in front Riou to make Riou destroy it right then before it kill many people.

ferrouslupusrex wrote:

Basically the Japanese, German and English versions are pretty much the same with a few exceptions to sentence construction (obviously because of different languages) and mistranslated Japanese pronouns because of the poor English translation. All 3 versions say that the beast rune WAS INDEED SEALED. Your mistake is that you trusted a suikoden fan site a little TOO much especially since some of their articles are borderline guesswork and may even be fan fiction.

It is only "sealed" temporarily. Not even the Black Sword Rune has the power to hold another True Rune for a prolonged time, especially one that has built its power so much. Evidently, Jowy is constantly tired because he must continuously hold the Beast Rune at bay. That would not be the case if the sealing of the Beast Rune is a one-time ritual.
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Ujitsuna

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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:03 am Post subject:

Jowy says himself he used up all of the Black Sword Rune's power keeping the Beast Rune at bay, and even then it wasn't premanent.

CAPTAIN PLANET

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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:34 am Post subject:

ferrouslupusrex wrote:

Quote:

Where exactly is this information? If True Rune bearers can die mortally, then they can be poisoned.

Elenor poisoned Lazlo and he was not affected but his party dropped like flies and this was because of his true rune. Now why didn't the souleater do the same thing with Tir? Remember that in both instances the word used was POISON not sleeping pills/ drugs. It's either the SIV author overpowered Lazlo in that instance or just plain forgot this attribute.

Yet, Elenor had to give him some kind of antidote after she dragged him into her house. Also, the drug was more of a sleeping drug, that made people say what's on their minds, or speak in their sleep, I assume, and it was not meant to kill them.
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Aurelien

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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject:

Quote:

It is not really illogical to think that the government is "capable" of murdering its own citizens. BUT, it is really illogical to think that the goverment would annihilate a whole village/city/town of its own people.

In real life, I wouldn't doubt if there's any dodgy government action to eliminate certain own citizen that they deemed to be dangerous. But I would really doubt it if the government would just suddenly destroy a whole city regardless of who the people are.

Quote:

Any citizen with a functioning brain would question a very doubtful explanation to an event.

And what is doubtful about the explanation of City-States of Jowston killing those people? Just because of location? Most people wouldn't even know where Kalekka was, let alone how to get there. With no internet, no newspaper, no real knowledge about what is happening at a certain village that is not yours, how the heck could you consider the explanation as "doubtful"?

Quote:

1. Geil Rugner’s loyalist/fanatics
2. Monsters that inhabit the area (Fishmen LOL, Grizzlies, ETC)
3. Local bandits/marauders in the area

1. Why would Geil Rugner's loyalist/fanatics want to massacre a whole village? Then there's also a question you raised yourself, is it logical to assume that there these loyalists pass through Kirov undetected? How many of these loyalists were needed to massacre a WHOLE village? And so on. It's even more far fetched than City-States of Jowston.

2. Why would monsters suddenly attack and massacre the whole village when there was no such thing happening in the past? If this was attack by monsters, how come there was no one escaping and asking help from Kirov? Monsters had no ability to make sure that there was no survivor to ask for help. They just attack with their mindless brains.

3. Once again, how did the bandits get there? How many bandits would be needed to massacre a whole village? Where did the bandits go after that? Why did they kill everyone instead of slaving around the women? How come the bandits possessing this much firepower to kill a whole village was never heard of before? etc.

Your ideas are even far less believable.

Quote:

So, ergo, and for all purposes and without a shadow of a doubt, the position of Kalekka was a mistake if you don’t want the general populace of SME branded as a bunch of ignoramuses.

They're not idiots or ignorants. They just happened to live in an era where there was no means to confirm stories. Kalekka's location was correct because the Scarlet Moon Empire required a secluded area to massacre the region without causing suspicion. Imagine if you're in their shoes. What kind of village would you sacrifice? The one in the middle of everywhere where many people can see what's happening? NO.

Quote:

What was the point of Leon to send out the beast rune because it was already sealed by Jowy?

Question, answer this honestly. Do you really believe that Black Sword Rune (that is NOT a True Rune) can completely seal Beast Rune (that is a True Rune)? Is that "logical"? I honestly hope that you answer no to this question and realize that there was no way for Jowy to completely seal the Beast Rune, and then realize that Jowy was just keeping it at bay by pushing his limit that ended up exhausting him.

Quote:

Now, did this follow Leon’s supposed character? No, they made him to an asshole that refused to lose.

(And I hope you do realize/know that Seed and Culgan were only badly injured and were in fact not declared as dead at most they are missing in action)

Releasing the Beast Rune followed Leon's characteristic because by doing so, it'd guarantee that the Beast Rune is defeated by Riou, and therefore, there will be no extra casualties in the future, and the war can really end. And I also hope that you realize that Konami has confirmed that both Seed and Culgan are dead instead of missing in action.

Quote:

Look at this picture of the speech bubbles from Leon and Jowy and tell it to my face that the developers made it seem that Leon WANTED to be defeated. Also take note of the word ‘SEAL’ and ‘STOP’ because those were described to what was done to the Beast Rune.

I can't look at the picture when you haven't even uploaded it now, can I? I'll wait until it has been uploaded before commenting on this. In the mean time, ask yourself again if a non True Rune is supposed to be able to SEAL and STOP a True Rune.

Quote:

Add also the fact that the scene where Riou’s army was worried about him showed Riou running from an undamaged castle entrance and you will see that the only real danger to Riou and his party was (at most) falling chunks of the castle’s roof.

If you're certain that the players are meant to come back to L'Renouille castle, then I ask you this when you returned there. Where the heck are the "falling chunks of the castle's roof" when you returned there? As far as I'm concerned, your screenshot of "Look! The Beast Rune is still here" showed very clean and polished floor. Answer?

Quote:

LoL. You just contradicted yourself. Jowy captured Greenhill, sure, when were you told of this? After defeating Kiba and Klaus. Not before going to Two River to help Ridley after Fitcher asked for help. Therefore, Greenhill was not under Highland's control during the time when Kiba and Klaus schemed to get Two River.

Quote:

Besides even if Greenhill had not been sieged/captured, how would its pathetic army of citizen conscripts even pose a danger to a highly trained war machine like highland?

Errr ... Greenhill do have soldiers, mind you. Remember the scene when people were actually surprised when Greenhill lost against Highland? Surely they didn't expect Greenhill to defend themselves just with a bunch of citizens.

Quote:

2, Or the siege was correctly placed but this would mean Leon and Kiba bribed/begged Riou’s army to let their(Highland) army retreat via the boats of Lakewest (possibly as much as a squadron at a time) totally unmolested which would be unrealistic and obscenely laughable.

I actually believe that Shu's reinforcement wasn't big enough to defeat Kiba if he chose to fight them. Therefore, it would be more beneficial for Shu to avoid battle if possible. Remember that Riou's Army had just started. They only had soldiers from South Window leftover. Most of them would be back at North Window guarding the Headquarter. Shu also had help from the nearby Kobold Village, which is located to the south of Two River, making the path to retreat to Lakewest (which is located to the North East of Two River) quite clear.
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ferrouslupusrex

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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:36 am Post subject:

Lol you guys continue to astound me with your interest about this. I love this. Don't take any of the arguments too personally, wokay? Because that would really ruin this whole thing.

-----
Okay let's start the argument first about greenhill
--------

Quote:

It has always been pretty evident that the first line of defense (in fact the only deciding factor why greenhill had stood at all) was because of their near impenetrable walls. Their military WAS their citizen conscripts. It is all pretty much a peasant militia. now explain how they would be able to stand against the highland soldiers (if the wall factor was not in the mix)?

And the whole time that the two river and kiba's regiment were having their skirmish, Jowy had already encamped outside greenhill and was waiting for the plan to work out. The plan was to cause conflict because of STARVATION. Now, is it realistic to starve a city in only a few days? Obviously it is not.

Jowy would need sufficient time for the idea of the evident danger of starvation to enter the skulls of the citizenry otherwise they would have not fought each other. Which means that Jowy's plan had already initiated at THE VERY LEAST the same time Kiba and Klaus started their siege. Therefore this means that Jowy had already started some control of greenhill eliminating the possibility of aid from greenhill. That is what you call a realistic tactic. Greenhill had farms inside their walls and food supply sufficient for their citizens but not the ADDITIONAL refugee soldiers from muse.

REALISTICALLY there are only a very select few ways for a city who can support 8000 (or so) to starve is if it
1. Gets additional mouths to feed and no means of increasing stockpiles. Thus the only result would be inevitable dwindling of foodstocks. *this is what happened
2. If a large part of their foodsupply within the walls are spoilt or destroyed and there is no means of importing food to it's hungry citizens
3. If it's existing citizens started to consume an absurd amount of food at such an absurd rate and there is no means to augment the supply
***ALL of the examples require ample time to result to possible starvation and by ample time that means more than the time that Riou's party returns to HQ which means the siege at both cities were roughly at the same time making it a realistic and a highly intelligent tactic.***

----
Now to kalekka
-----

Quote:

BUT, it is really illogical to think that the goverment would annihilate a whole village/city/town of its own people.

Tell the citizens of Iraq that. Or you can also tell the people of Kosovo. Tell the massacred tribes of africa. Yep, it's illogical alright. Obviously the suikoden world is so utterly fantastic that it would be illogical for the citizens of Kirov to not believe an outrageous lie because they have not seen any invading army pass by their ports. Yeah real ILLOGICAL.

Quote:

Your ideas would be understandable if only Kalekka was a secluded location. UNFORTUNATELY, it is NOT. They are neighbors with Kirov for crying out loud! The correct location for Kalekka should have been around Moravia (as far as Antei as possible).

----
Now to Leon and the beast rune.
-------

Quote:

And I also hope that you realize that Konami has confirmed that both Seed and Culgan are dead instead of missing in action.

Yeah they are both dead because Seed still was obviously in no condition to have his knee bent when they both fell (Oddly enough he did, can you imagine?).

Does this mean that he did this action because of an involuntary reflex action which was totally impossible to do because his injuries was so great that he was dying? Oh, I see the answer is 'It is a fantasy game'. That covers it. :*laugh*: That's just absurd storytelling there if they expect us to believe that both of them died. Their bodies are missing therefore they are MIA. The only verdict would be a presumptive death to let their wives marry again and so that their heirs can get their legitimes. :*laugh*:
*presumptive death is declared if a spouse/parent leaves the place of domecile without any reason and had not been heard since - just a legal term for you blokes.

Quote:

*I am VERY HONEST about this. Don't take this as a jest which I'll worm out of because I wont.*

By the word SEALED and STOPPED it would seem that the components of the rune of the beggining are considerably powerful and are just a tad shy of the power of a true rune but it obviously can SEAL a TRUE rune although it would result to overexhaustion of it's energies (which is obviously tied to the bearer's life force) Yep. IT IS LOGICAL to believe that the components of the rune of the beggining are capable of doing so because the black sword rune DID JUST THAT with the Beast Rune.

*I don't want you to answer this but just think about it. If Jowy had only kept the beast rune at bay why did it teleport back to highland when it was already staying at Muse after just having partaken of the sacrifice?*

Quote:

Releasing the Beast Rune followed Leon's characteristic because by doing so, it'd guarantee that the Beast Rune is defeated by Riou

I would gladly agree with you on this one IF only the beast rune was merely kept at bay but it WAS NOT so therefore Leon was acting out of character and Konami just bastardized all that he stood for.

Quote:

I said at most! If L'Renouille was a real castle some it's more brittle/fragile parts will fall off like mottifs, gargoyleheads and chandeliers. They would REALISTICALLY fall creating a possible danger of RIOU dying which is why everyone was worried.

You are nitpicking all to no avail. If I want to follow your style of argument I would say:
WHY did the programmers not just have a cut scene showing RIOU had travelled and finally reached Tenzan pass after triggering the Flik&Viktor speech? Which I would gladly and correctly answer because they intended you to have free reign/control of Riou for a while to explore and partake of the rune shop at Sajah.

---
To the two river siege
---

Quote:

I see. So you subscribe to thory #2. Let me just give the mandatory 'hahahaha' and pat you on your back for having the balls to support this. Okay here is what would possibly be the game script if Shu would allow such a thing.

Kiba: I, Kiba Windamier, would like safe passage for my troops.
Shu: Okay since I don't want any bloodshed at this point.
Soldier: But we have them at our mercy. They are tired from battle. Some are wounded and the army of two river and the kobold village are at their heals. This is assured Victory, strategist Shu, sir.
Shu: Do you want to battle the highland army and risk your life?
Soldier: It is better than them convening again with the main highland army. The time to strike is now. They are relatively defenseless.
Shu: Who is the strategist here?
Soldier: You are, sir.
Shu: Then allow them to leave!
*After Kiba's last troop is safely sailing away
Kiba: Hahahaha! What a moron!
Shu: D'oh!
*Kiba joins Luca's forces at muse and the proceed to eventually capture Radat
Radat person: That IDIOT SHU. He had the chance!
Shu: D'oh
***Funny, right? No, Shu would never abandon his training as a strategist and not sieze the opportunity when everything is going their way.

By supporting Theory #2 you are indirectly saying that Shu would be stupid enough to allow a great opportunity to deal Highland a great defeat while also intentionally demoralizing their troops.
I guess Konami wanted us to believe such an absurd thing. Oh well :*laugh*:
_________________
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Last edited by ferrouslupusrex on Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total

ferrouslupusrex

Ferrouslupusrex

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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:16 am Post subject:

Quote:

What part of loyalist/fanatics do you not understand? They could very well be some kirovians in the mix of TORAN citizens who still wanted Geil's governance. Remember this happened just after the succession war. They would not raise as much as an eyebrow if they passed because their clothing and accent are clearly Toranese. Now how is that far fetched?

Quote:

2. Why would monsters suddenly attack and massacre the whole village when there was no such thing happening in the past? If this was attack by monsters, how come there was no one escaping and asking help from Kirov? Monsters had no ability to make sure that there was no survivor to ask for help. They just attack with their mindless brains.

There was a survivor! What are you talking about? No survivor? The old man at Kalekka says he is the only survivor (he may be a SME soldier who was tasked to proliferate Leon's lie for all we know and if he is then it would be logical that the Kirovians believed the lie because of this 'witness').

Now for your argument, monsters ARE mindless therefore they would follow their predatory instincts, any one fleeing would be realistically chased down (like wild dogs if you want a real world example). Considering that it was only a 15 or so strong village overrunning this village is simple.

Quote:

3. Once again, how did the bandits get there? How many bandits would be needed to massacre a whole village? Where did the bandits go after that? Why did they kill everyone instead of slaving around the women? How come the bandits possessing this much firepower to kill a whole village was never heard of before? etc.

You dont need a lot of firepower to kill 15 or so people (and it is a safe guess that there where children and women in that small number). Bandits can live at some camp somewhere in the forests sorounding the area. This is pretty common considering that all transitory de facto governments usually deal with local lawless elements in remote areas (bandits, rebel factions,thugs, etc ).

Why did they kill everyone? Because bloodlust can sometimes make you think illogically. Besides pillages as history show usually involves murder, robbery and rape. They don't have to enslave. Just kill, take their loot, sexxorsize the women and leave.

If you are talking about a slave raid, raiders do that, not bandits.

This is a whole lot more believable than a relatively unseen invading foreign army, don't you agree?
*You made a grave mistake attacking the bandit theory because this was the most believable of all.
_________________
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Last edited by ferrouslupusrex on Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total

Aurelien

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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:44 am Post subject:

Quote:

Their military WAS their citizen conscripts. It is all pretty much a peasant militia.

Greenhill do have soldiers, and that's a fact. For you to insist that they are only citizens/peasants is just ignoring the fact. They might not be the best of soldiers in the world, but they are soldiers none the less. This is evident in Suikogaiden Vol.1 Chapter 4.

Quote:

The plan was to cause conflict because of STARVATION. Now, is it realistic to starve a city in only a few days? Obviously it is not.

Okay, now tell me then, how long is "realistic"? Starvation doesn't need too long, it'd depend on how much food supply is there compared to the consumption. With the extra soldiers being in the thousands, and with Greenhill had no means to re-supply their ration, then starvation can actually be achieved in a very quick time. Also notice that there are a lot of children in Greenhill, making them very exposed with starvation as children would have less energy to hold out on hunger. And obviously, this didn't even happen until the whole ration went kaput as Teresa sacrificed herself once the situation became ridiculous.

So once again, how long is realistic to you? After all, the whole Dunan Unification War itself only took 6 months.

Quote:

Tell the citizens of Iraq that. Or you can also tell the people of Kosovo. Tell the massacred tribes of africa. Yep, it's illogical alright.

*sigh* you're not supporting your idea with the whole Iraq/Kosovo/African tribes comparison. In those cases, they knew who were killing them. If they didn't know, then why the heck would they suddenly think that the government would want to kill them? I don't know what country you're from, but if any city in your country is suddenly bombed tomorrow (let's hope it's not really happening), tell me, would the first thing that came to your mind be "Hey, it's our own government who bombed that city!"? When you watched the 9/11 on TV when it happened, did you think "Hey, George W Bush ordered the pilot to fly the plane to the World Trade Center so they can kill their own Americans!!"? Is that logical? Not at all. Keep in mind that the key thing is whether you have any reason to think like that or not. In Scarlet Moon Empire's case, the people had ZERO reason to think that their government would massacre the people of Kalekka. And you have failed to provide anything to make them think otherwise.

Quote:

Obviously the suikoden world is so utterly fantastic that it would be illogical for the citizens of Kirov to not believe an outrageous lie because they have not seen any invading army pass by their ports. Yeah real ILLOGICAL.

You're not helping your argument by sticking to your Kirov point.
1. Scarlet Moon Empire is NOT Kirov. There are way more regions other than Kirov. For those people over there not in Kirov, you have failed to present a single argument on why they should not believe the story by the government. You only focused on Kirov, well it's not like the people at Arlus would have internet to watch webcam and ask what happened in Kirov, right? And it's not like people in Kirov suddenly had video camera to broadcast LIVE on TV of what happened in Kalekka while nothing happened in Kirov (we don't even know if anything happened or not at Kirov). And so on.

2. We do not know what happened in Kirov. Were there casualties there too? Example, maybe their guards were killed by Scarlet Moon Empire army during the night time when the villagers were asleep, hence giving the impression that "someone" did sneak pass Kirov to reach Kalekka. Point is, you can't just assume that nothing happened at Kirov. We simply don't know.

Okay just to cover the other possibility, now let's assume that the people at Kirov were actually suspicious about what happened in Kalekka. Then what? Are they going to start an uprising against the Scarlet Moon Empire army and risk of receiving the same unpleasant fate like Kalekka? Is it not more logical for Kirov to shut up and protect their own lives by pretending to not know anything that happened because they fear for any punishment by the government?

Quote:

Their bodies are missing therefore they are MIA.

ROFLMAO!!! Where did you even get this idea? Let me guess, when you returned to L'Renouille after defeating the Beast Rune, you didn't find Seed and Culgan's bodies, right? Therefore, they're MIA!! Just like the chunks that were supposed to fall down from the shaking roof!! The chunks from the roof are also MIA!!! Wow, amazing. Damn them thieves who would steal chunks from the roof to sell on the black market. Damn them *shakes fists* lolololol

And of course Han Cunnigham was still alive too. And Solon Jhee as well because well he still had his head connected to his neck the last time we saw him, right? And Luca Blight was also alive because he was just "in no condition to have his knee bent when he fell", right? LOL. The points you brought up are getting more and more unbelievable.

Quote:

By supporting Theory #2 you are indirectly saying that Shu would be stupid enough to allow a great opportunity to deal Highland a great defeat while also intentionally demoralizing their troops.

So you expect Shu, with the minimal soldiers he had with him, to defeat Kiba and Klaus with their Highland's 3rd Army (though most likely not full force)? You made it sound like Kiba and Klaus are weaklings. Kiba was the General that defended Fort Retto with 100 soldiers against 2000 enemies. Klaus was also a tactician, though not as good as Shu. They are no weaklings. Shu, on the other hand, only had leftovers from South Window whom many were left to guard the North Window. And you expect Shu to defeat Kiba?

By supporting theory #2, I consider Shu was smart enough to know that he was in no position to win if they went to fight Kiba right there and then. Shu fully realized that Riou's army needed TIME to build up and gather allies before they could even think of attacking Highland.

Let's assume we go with your scenario and Shu defeated Kiba. Then what? Luca Blight would be pissed, and he'd send everyone to attack North Window. Would Riou have enough people to defend against Highland invasion only with South Window leftover plus Two River? No. Be smart and realize what you can and cannot do, and also consider the long-term effect of your strategy when it comes to war. If you're so easily baited by what's in front of your eyes, you're not going to last long enough to see the end of the war.
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ferrouslupusrex

Ferrouslupusrex

Joined: 16 Jun 2007
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:06 am Post subject:

Quote:

Let's assume we go with your scenario and Shu defeated Kiba. Then what? Luca Blight would be pissed, and he'd send everyone to attack North Window. Would Riou have enough people to defend against Highland invasion only with South Window leftover plus Two River? No. Be smart and realize what you can and cannot do, and also consider the long-term effect of your strategy when it comes to war. If you're so easily baited by what's in front of your eyes, you're not going to last long enough to see the end of the war.

You know he can't send the full force of his army because most of them are stationed at their recently occupied cities. Really now? By sending the full force and fury of highland's army they would be opening themselves to attack and would only result to a protracted war that would cause highland's control of the region (as little as it may have been) to weaken. Nope, crazed as he was he would not care about Kiba because Kiba was a hindrance to his plan to have Kiba's most revered master, Agares, murdered. :*laugh*: Surprising eh?

Despite Kiba's resume of excellent defense at fort retto what he did was far easier than invading. Defense with the aid of a fort is far easier than attacking knowing that you have to defeat the enemy as quickly as possible because backup(two river) was closing in. This scenario would result to Kiba and Klaus' defeat IF SHU DENIES THEM SAFE PASSAGE (which he will considering his reputation as a strategist). Besides a good deal of their soldiers were injured and/or exhausted.

Quote:

Yeah, imagine this: a crack team of 1000 U.S. navy seals against a sudanese militia of superior numbers engaging in the open plains. That's essentially what would happen if greenhill's 'soldiers' decided to engage in a skirmish with highland soldiers. The superior numbers would not figure because of superior military power. I pointed out that they were essentially militia to emphasize that point.

Also don't forget that greenhill had to provide rice tributes to Matilda because they were reliant on the Matilda knights for protection.

Quote:

I do not know how to respond to this. :*laugh*: You are such a child. I suggest you check your copy of s2 and Layfield's website now.

Quote:

*sigh* you're not supporting your idea with the whole Iraq/Kosovo/African tribes comparison...

Nope, the idea there was to point out real world examples in which even the far flung citizens knew that it was not an invading outside force that caused the crime but a local based aggresive force.

And I already specifically pointed out that the Toran Citizens were some of the most ignorant citizens especially on the geography of their own country. THIS would make them believe that the Kalekka massacre happened as the SME government says it did.

Quote:

So once again, how long is realistic to you? After all, the whole Dunan Unification War itself only took 6 months.

2 weeks at the very least. Surely you don't expect a farming community to starve in less than a week?
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Aurelien

20.01.08

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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:41 am Post subject:

Missed out on your edit and double post (can't understand why you like to double post so much instead of editing your post). So I'll comment here.

Quote:

Yep. IT IS LOGICAL to believe that the components of the rune of the beggining are capable of doing so because the black sword rune DID JUST THAT with the Beast Rune.

Your answer is not logical at all. By definition of the word, "Logical" can mean the following:
1. according to or agreeing with the principles of logic: a logical inference.
2. reasoning in accordance with the principles of logic, as a person or the mind: logical thinking.
3. reasonable; to be expected: War was the logical consequence of such threats.
4. of or pertaining to logic.

Facts:
1. True Rune is stronger than non True Rune
2. Black Sword Rune is not a True Rune
3. Beast Rune is a True Rune

How is it logical for you to say that Black Sword Rune can stop and seal the Beast Rune when Black Sword Rune is weaker than Beast Rune?

Your logic is backwards because you swap the role of the points around. You use "the assumption" as your "supporting idea" instead. It doesn't work that way at all, ferrous. You can't say the following and call it logical:
1. David Copperfield flew because humans can fly (humans can't fly, in case you don't know that)
2. David Copperfield walked through the Great Wall of China because humans can walk through walls (humans can't walk through walls, in case you don't know that)
3. You got $10 under your pillow because the Tooth Fairy is real (sorry, but there is no such thing as Tooth Fairy)
4. Black Sword Rune can seal Beast Rune because Black Sword Rune did seal Beast Rune (no, Black Sword Rune did not seal the Beast Rune)

On the other hand, it is very logical to say that Black Sword Rune cannot seal Beast Rune because Black Sword Rune is not a True Rune and therefore weaker than Beast Rune that is a True Rune. Now that is logical.

Quote:

You are nitpicking all to no avail. If I want to follow your style of argument I would say:
WHY did the programmers not just have a cut scene showing RIOU had travelled and finally reached Tenzan pass after triggering the Flik&Viktor speech? Which I would gladly and correctly answer because they intended you to have free reign/control of Riou for a while to explore and partake of the rune shop at Sajah.

LOL. You once again missed the point. I never argued about the developer intending for the player to have free control of Riou for a while and partake of the rune shop at Sajah (and while we're at it, you can also recruit missing SoDs too if you still fulfill the pre-requisite to recruit them in case you missed them before defeating Beast Rune). I simply said that you were not intended to go back to L'Renouille (hence, why I said that the programmers simply forgot to restrict the area). Are you not able to tell the difference between the two? One is L'Renouille, the other is Sajah. They are different. ^^

Quote:

That is far fetched because:
1. You'd need a lot of people to massacre a whole village like Kalekka. "Some" Kirovians would not be enough to massacre Kalekka.
2. Why would Geil's loyalist want to massacre Kalekka? Kalekka is "just a village in Scarlet Moon Empire". If Geil's loyalist want to make a point to the current government, then surely there is better place for them to attack (e.g.: attack the government instead of people in a secluded village with no real ties with the government)

Quote:

Considering that it was only a 15 or so strong village overrunning this village is simple.

15 or so? lololol. You do realize that "Population: 15" is after the massacre, don't you?

Quote:

You made a grave mistake attacking the bandit theory because this was the most believable of all.

Well, you made a grave mistake because you thought there were only 15 people in Kalekka when it was massacred by the "bandits". LOL! It's interesting how you actually thought that 15 people were all that formed the whole village of Kalekka. Apparently 15 people were enough to do the famous cotton production and whatnot. Oh well, that's your so called logic, I suppose.

---

Now onto your new reply.

Quote:

You know he can't send the full force of his army because most of them are stationed at their recently occupied cities.

It's amazing how you can think of this point but still think that Shu has enough soldiers to defeat Kiba. A M A Z I N G

Highland had far more soldiers than Riou's Army. You said that Luca wouldn't be able to send full force of his army to attack Riou at North Window. Point taken. But somehow you think that Shu had enough soldiers to defeat Kiba despite Riou having far less soldiers than Highland and most of them were back at North Window. Unbelievable.

Quote:

I suggest you check your copy of s2 and Layfield's website now.

lol, so now you believe in Suikoden fansite, eh? Is that a "fanfiction" site? It's amazing how you can condemn others on relying on Suikoden fansite while you use it yourself. Btw, duefiumi is down now. So there's no way for me to check it. Suikox's Seed profile said unknown, but Culgan's profile said he's dead buried in when the castle collapsed. Your call on who to trust. I recall in the past the mention about Konami confirming the death of Seed and Culgan. If that was changed later on, I completely missed out on that notice.
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ferrouslupusrex

Ferrouslupusrex

Joined: 16 Jun 2007
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:56 am Post subject:

Quote:

Yes and perhaps you are saying that they created a teleport slot to carry you to Sajah :*laugh*: Wait there IS NO teleport slot to sajah! Hehehe... sorry I can't resist. The reason why it is not restricted it is because it was intentionally left open.

And by any chance have you seen this:
http://www.geocities.com/ferrouslupusrex/LEON.JPG

Quote:

I am not overly reliant on the fansites but regarding most information they are correct. It's just the whole convoluted beast rune mistery that's making me question certain articles.

John had Seed and Culgan listed as MIA. I also recall on a certain gamesite that the deceased tag was removed thus only MIA applies.

And oh before I forget: if you get the good ending leknaat would say that this was the TRUE power of the rune of the beggining (nope not just the bright shield rune) seemingly indicating that Leknaat recognized that the rune was as powerful separate as it was combined. She may be wrong but who can really say except Konami.

Quote:

Highland had far more soldiers than Riou's Army. You said that Luca wouldn't be able to send full force of his army to attack Riou at North Window. Point taken. But somehow you think that Shu had enough soldiers to defeat Kiba despite Riou having far less soldiers than Highland and most of them were back at North Window. Unbelievable.

What gave you the idea that north window would require a majority of their stationed troops thus depleting Shu's soldiers?

Don't you see that the position of northwindow would afford them sufficient time to deploy their forces at a near maximum strength without danger considering that highland only had control of Muse, Coronet, Toto, The Fort and Greenhill at that time? Shu had the soldiers (fresh and uninjured) to detain Kiba while the Two River army would sandwich them.

Quote:

Your logic is backwards because you swap the role of the points around. You use "the assumption" as your "supporting idea" instead. It doesn't work that way at all, ferrous. You can't say the following and call it logical:

The rules on evidence ( yes this includes circumstancial evidence) would prove me correct :) And no, if my logic is backwards then the entire convictions with the aid of circumstancial evidence recorded in legal history would all be governed by certiorari because of abuse of authority.
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