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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:32 pm    Post subject: Database Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For the past few months I have been collecting a statistical database of the playable characters in the Suikoden series. What I'm doing is leveling up each character to level 60 (50 for Rhapsodia and 99 for SIV) and seeing where their stats fall when they are at the level where you should be able to beat the game. Kinda of a comparative analysis. I have collected all the raw character data from S1 S2 S4 and S5 and now I am running into two problems.

FIrstly, I am a little torn on what equipment to use when calculating the final ARM stat. Do I ue the best equipment that a character can wear (even if it unique?) or the best equipment you can buy. The first way gives a better view of the character's full power, but it isn't practical. The second yields very low scores, but is a better indication of the general ARM level.

Secondly, I am trying to convert the stats into letter grades (E, D, C, B, B+, A, A+ and S) but I'm having trouble with that. I was trying to use standard deviation to reach levels, but for stats like MGC (which have high extremes and a low mean) I get weird results. In S1 for example, I get 10 A+ mages and no E. Even Fu Su Lame comes up as a D using SD. Anyone know more about statistics calculation that can give me a better system?

Also, does anyone know if Gengen and Gabocha can wear Silverlets?
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Axiose

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Seeing as the stats aren't a standard between each game (so Luc in Suikoden I won't have the same grade as Luc in Suikoden III), it might be worth having a seperate table that dictates what counts as what grade in what game.

For example:

Code:
Points    Stat      Grade     Game
100       MAG       C         I
150       MAG       C         II


That way, in the database, you'd have a character appear as this:

Code:
Name      Rank      Game
Luc       A         I
Luc       A+        III


I think grouping all stats together would be difficult as the growth of the stats is different (if I remember correctly) so you will get squiffy stats.

That way, you can quickly alter the desired level for each grade to level off the results. In my mind, there should be more A results than A+ results, otherwise you're grade for A+ is too low. If that was the case, you can raise the bar for A+ grade until you're satisfied with the result (more A+ than A's)

There is no standard (as far as I'm aware) for points/rank, so you'd have to make that up. After that, you can either have ranked what each character would be in each stat and given an "average" rank based on each individual stat (three A's and three C's would make a B player - as a rough guide), or you can use the total stat figure and give them a rank based on that.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Suikosource did a good job of ranking stat growths in their Suikoden III and IV charts. They used numbers in ranking (00-10) instead of numbers, with their respective growths and probabilities, so that's a start. As for the equipment, I think it would be better if we gave the best damage output instead of the best equipment defensively, so as to be able to highlight each character's efficiency.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I had been planning to do each game separately. S1 seems to have very inflated stats, something which is fixed in later games, and nothing would make sense together.

What I'm trying to figure out is how to assign points per rank. Like what range equals a A and what range equals a B. Stuff like that.
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Axiose

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's something you'll have to work out through trial and error. Without any data to work on, I couldn't give you any stats at all.

What you'd want to do is to get the data which is formated to assign ranks (like I mentioned above) and then change the rank values at a later date. Otherwise, you could say 300+ MAG = A+ which could either give you 15 A+ magicians or none.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would plot them on a number line and see where people sit and use your best judgement on how powerful characters are storeline wise and what their exact number is. Thus, if you know a certain character is looked at as a better class of mage than another, but they are only 5/10 points apart, draw the line in between them. As for equipment, before actually doing your chart, deduct points for their armor and weapon strength to get their core stats, that way a person can gauge character strength by their personal gameplay style!
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think I developed a good system for assigned letters. It works for everything except magic so far, so for that stat I've been making judgment calls based on MP. As for the others, what I'm doing is calculating the mean, and then assigning letter grades bsaed on how far from the mean the score is. The system I've been using is:

S=30% above the mean and up
A+=20% to 30%above the mean
A=10% to 20% above the mean
B+=mean to 10% above the mean
B=10% below the mean to mean
C=20% to 10% below the mean
D=30% to 20% below the mean
E=more than 30% below the mean

This creates a nice spread that follows the natural breaks fairly well.

I have also decided to use the best buyable armor for my calculations. I figure that unique items should be used for the characters that pass the test, so we should see how everyone ranks on equal footing. I mean, there is only 1 Dream Robe in S2, so its not fair that all light armor wearers should be ranked as if wearing it. Also, in S4 90% of the characters have the Pirate King Set as their best gear, and what's the point in using the same value for everyone?

I also am not calculating PWR/STR or PRO/PDF. ATK and ARM encompass these already, and also the large monster characters skew the statistics. ABizboah, for example has a STR of 540something, which sets the mean higher than it should be. Granted, he's still leaps and bounds above everyone else in ATK score, but its closer. Also, if we're going for max damage output here, STR means little since weapons account for an equal or larger chunk of the ATK stat than STR does anyway.

So far the worst character in any game statistically is Tuta and the best is either Odessa or Chiepoo. Of course, I haven't done 3 or Rhapsodia yet, but those games shouldn't change much. Rhapsodia has small stat variance and there aren;t really any gods or stinkers in S3 as far as I can recall. OK, the dogs suck, but they should be better than Tuta!
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well. With some of the games, it gets a little more complex than just stats because skills have to be accounted for too, in some cases... someone with a bunch of skills related to their stats or combat purpose that have high letter grades is going to have a bit of an advantage over someone who doesn't do as well in that regard. Especially true in Suikoden III, where a few A to S skills make a difference, as does having 8 skill slots or a few uniques... but, I suppose that falls out of the scope here.

Anyway, I'd actually suggest taking a page out of standardized test scoring here, if you want a system other than judgment calls for magic. What Axiose said about the stats not really being the same from game to game is true, and additionally, you want to avoid having a bunch of grade A mages in your system. So you might consider ranking them based on percentile. That way, even with similar stats, you can still easily rank which ones are better in relation to the others. Now, this has to be used a little differently than a scale where grades are strictly based on falling within a certain range of numbers, but it could work.
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not taking skills into account (that will be on a second line). SKills in S3 can be forgotten (mostly) and in S5 they don't affect anything unless they are equipped. In most cases you can strip a character of skills, so raw statistical scores can be complied. With magic, If you have one level 4 spell, you get a B+, additional level 4 spells lead to higher grades. If you only have level 1 or 2 spells you get an E and the others fill in the grades in between.

When I finally compile all this into a workable sheet, skill levels and free slots and all that will be listed in separate tabs.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

i would definitely recommend removing all equipment to determine the stats, and to subtract whatever permanent equipment is adding to defense and other stats. permanent equipment is not that big of an issue, but in some games there might be a huge discussion on what equipment is "best". some things give you extra bonuses so you can't just say highest DEF = best. there is a huge argument that you don't need THAT much PDF to play Suikoden, and that the stat bonuses coming from other equipment make it the best piece.
Avoiding this altogether is going to save you from this type of discussion.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've given up trying to assign letter grades. I can't find a system that's consistent, so I'm just going to collect the numbers. I also have to start over again since playing around trying to get letter grades resulted in my saving over my raw data on the Excell document I've been collecting it all in. I know I should have made a backup, but I screwed it up.

As for equipment, I'm keeping the stat boosts from locked gear (those damned Guard Robes) in because since the gear can't be removed, you might as well consider it a full part of the stats. Besides. Without his Wing Boots Stallion does not have the highest speed in Suikoden 1. Stallion MUST have the highest speed in Suikoden 1. YAR!

As for DEF, I'm going to go with the best purchaseable equipment (no rare finds or drops). It keeps everyone on a level playing field. It also makes characters like Sigfried and Feather not be so far behind.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You do realize that stat growth takes a major dip after level 60, right? As far as I know, that's true for every Suikoden (at least 1-3, though Tactics is different obviously). The stats just increase less from that point on. Level 60 is pretty much the point where you can stop leveling up your character, unless you really want Hoi's extra rune slot, or you're Magic stat is close to giving you more spell slots.

The one exception I can think of is Gremio in Suikoden 1, whose stat growth either improves or stays the same after level 60. Can't remember. But he is the exception.

I remember hearing that Nanami and Chuchara experience similar effects in Suikoden 2 after they hit 60, but I never got them above 60, so I cannot say...

Quote:

Besides. Without his Wing Boots Stallion does not have the highest speed in Suikoden 1. Stallion MUST have the highest speed in Suikoden 1. YAR!


Actually, he does. Kinda. He's tied with Kasumi. And Krin too, I think? Basically, he has the same stat growth in Speed as Kasumi, but since stats are somewhat randomized (sometimes a stat goes up by 1, sometimes by 2, etc.) they'll turn out differently, depending on the exact savefile.

So technically, its possible for Kasumi's Speed to be lower than Stallion's, even if he isn't wearing anything to boost it. If Stallion's Speed was increasing by the highest number possible (3 instead of 3, for example), and hers was doing the opposite.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gremio's STR growth speeds up after 60. Before that his growth is similar to Krin or Eileen in STR, but at 99 he's the same as Tir. Viktor's HP growth has a weird curve, too. He starts off with ridiculous HP, but at 60 he's around the same as Cleo.

60 is where I'm stopping the growth and recording the data, too.

As for Stallion, in all of my games he tops kasumi and Krin because of the boots. If you remove the 10 points of SPD the boots give, he almost always lower than the others. Granted, Kasumi can wear Taikioku Wear, a Speed Ring and Wing BOots, so she can beat him out by a longshot that way. But if you really want to have fun with a useless character, slap a Gale Rune on Krin. His speed will top 400!
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