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Gay marriage in Massachusetts
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That sounds excellent, good-looking girls are okay to be gay. However, isn't that discriminatory? Lets go a bit further and say that all ugly people should not wed!

I mean, seriously, do you like seeing ugly couples being cuddly? Surely such a sight won't warm your heart but instead turn your stomach.

This will also ensure that all ugly-people genes will die out, and we'll only have good looking people! How great!!

But wait, I guess that is the type of methodology used by Nazi Germany to erradicate "undesireable" genes. Not a good idea, I suppose.

Of course, I am kidding. If the only argument against gay marriage is because "it's gross" or "men with squeaky voices are weird" etc, gay marriage would have already realized--or so one would think. For one thing, most gay men don't act like women, and have the so-called "squeaky voice." In fact, there are straight men who have "squeaky voices." Should straight men with squeaky voices not be allowed to wed?

Lets get serious, is the issue really the squeaky voice? What is wrong with squeaky voices? Is Micky Mouse gay? Is his relationship with Minnie just a front!? The plot thickens...
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Deloseth

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
But now I don't care what there story is I'm not about to even think about why they turned out like that


So you think being gay's a choice? Sorry, I don't really recall a point in my life where I suddenly thought "Hmm, I'll start fancying men today". Do you recall deciding to only fancy the opposite sex?

Oh, and I wholly applaud Massachusetts, hoping the rest of America, and the world, will follow suit.

Edit: Spelling.
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VikiWaffu




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This brings up something that my friend and I were talking about. Out of all the people who don't support homosexuality, I bet that a large portion of the men are some of the same guys who drool over girl/girl porn. I've known many men like that - they hate gays, yet still they love to see "hot chicks" together. It's so contradictory.

Something that really bothers me about the anti- gay marriage issue: The U.S. is supposed to be based on the principles of freedom, especially religious freedom. So, there is supposed to be a distinct separation between church and state. Even if the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong, that should have absolutely no bearing at all on U.S. federal, state, or local laws. Most of the arguments that President Bush and others bring up involve the sanctity of marriage, moral values, and other things that seem to me to be rather religious, even strongly pro-Christian.
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

iscalio wrote:
My sympathy to the Nameless Lands.


No wonder I'm following you :lol:

In other news: I agree with most of you. I have a serious problem over guys who hate gays, yet think gay women are unbelievably hot. I have a friend just like that. He's unabashedly homophobic and hates gay men with a passion, yet you could simply mention two women together and he ... well, enjoys it. It's hypocritical and vain.
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Nelm




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What a great topic. Surely, it is a great way to use my first post.

First off, I would like to say that I am a conservative and I am at the young age of 17...Naturally, my political party would be against gay marriages. However, I do not blindly follow whomever it is I choose to follow. I'm not going to lie, I love 2 hot chicks being together; However, I don't think they only hot chicks should be allowed to wed. Hot chicks are in porn, fat ugly lesbians aren't, so there isn't a problem there.

In America, I believe that everyone should be able to do whatever they want to do as long as they do not impose their views onto others or invade their rights. The last time I checked, Paul and John weren't making me participate in their homosexual activities, nor where they telling me to support gay marriage. If gay people want to be married, then let them marry, because honestly, it isn't going to kill anyone. If you don't want to see two guys or two ugly girls making out in public, turn your head; it's that simple.

But do I think that homosexuality is right? Certainly not. But who am I to say that someone who has a different opinion than me is wrong? Just because I do not believe in homosexuality, doesn't mean that gay people shouldn't have the right to enjoy the fine things in life that everyone else. Of course people will be outraged and convservatives will be upset about it, but guess what? That's the beauty of America; it was the same way with blacks, women, and other minorities.

To close out, I'd just like to say that if gay people can get married legally, then more power to them...
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
iscalio wrote:
My sympathy to the Nameless Lands.


No wonder I'm following you

In other news: I agree with most of you. I have a serious problem over guys who hate gays, yet think gay women are unbelievably hot. I have a friend just like that. He's unabashedly homophobic and hates gay men with a passion, yet you could simply mention two women together and he ... well, enjoys it. It's hypocritical and vain.


agrees with the iscalio, lena and viki; that is such contrary garbage. if one form offends you, then how can you, in all seriousness, defend enjoying another? it's hypocritical and, like they said, stereotypical of some horny boy. you can't select one thing, say it's ok, makes you hot or whatever, while condemning another part that is the same.
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Maximillian

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Saben wrote:
What I would like to see is someone who OPPOSES gay marriage in this topic but who is able to present their case in an intelligent and logical fashion.


But the problem with that is about 95% of the people who oppose gay marriage are like the eloquent Mr. Tekknopirate, who have no intelligent or logical reasons for their beliefs. If you wish for an intelligent debate I could try batting for the other team for a while.

Marriage is a religious institution first and a civil contract second. Marriages are performed in churches for a reason, they are purely religious things by nature, and thus religion should dictate who should and should not be allowed to wed. Perhaps homosexuals could have Vermont-like Civil Unions, so they could get the same RIGHTS as heterosexual partners, but Marriage is a different matter. It is up to the church to decide whether homosexual marriages should be allowed, not the state. And the church has their reasons for opposing homosexual unions, for in their view of things God has clearly stated that homosexuality is an abomination. Civil Unions could be allowed, if the majority of the state votes in favor of them, but Marriage shall be restricted to the heterosexuals until God himself comes down from the heavens and says otherwise.

Furthermore, Homosexual partners with a Civil Union should NOT have the same rights and privileges as a Married Heterosexual couple. Some of those rights and privileges are given to Married couples for they have a responsiblity to the state, the responsibility to breed and bring forth a new generation of American citizens. Homosexuals are by definition incapable of breeding, and hence neglect this responsibility, so they should not recieve the same benifits as Married couples. Equal pay for Equal work, I believe was the slogan of many civil rights movements, Since homosexuals do not do equal "work" they should not recieve equal "pay", correct?

And if you do not have a strict definition of Marriage, as we hope to have soon "Only between a man and a woman", then you are opening the door for all sorts of blasphemous and ethically improper unions. If you allow two men to marry, why not allow one man and two woman? or Three men? Or how about a man and a horse? Who are you to deny them their "equal rights"? Would I be allowed to marry my own mother? What if you we truly love each other? Why would you deny us our freedom? It's just too risky to allow homosexuals to marry, for once you open the door it becomes much harder to close it.
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EZ_Rabbit

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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't have any particularly strong feelings on the matter...

But here's my two cents none the less...

Marriage is a religiously based institution,
and is defined as a union between a man and a woman.

Gay people can't get married by that definition...
However, they can have civil unions which as far as I am aware,
is a non-religious equivalent.

Alot of politicians avoid this issue, because freedom of religion would entail that,
the religious basis of marriage keeps it free from Govt interference.

Personally, I don't believe Marriage is practiced as it is defined.
It is meant to be an oath, and yet it is now simply an arrangement.

Because the culture here in the US is such that people don't respect
the sanctity of marriage, I don't see why there is such a fuss about this issue.

I don't support gay marriage any more than I support gay...well, anything.
But, I don't oppose it, because I don't feel what they are doing is any worse
than the massive amounts of infidelity, divorce, etc...
By definition a marriage can't end in divorce, because it is till death,
but that is allowed regardless.

Really, to me it would make more sense to simply say that the US
no longer recognizes marriage, and just say everyone has a civil union.

............

The only "gay" thing I object to is the float in the ST. Patty's Day parade.
Cuz that's about being Irish, and theres no reason for sexual orientation to be involved.

But yeah, Jenna and anonymous other hot chicks...thats cool with me.
More power to em.

Oh, and...
Ugly people shouldn't marry...or kiss.
Ugly people shouldn't even be happy...cuz like...they're ugly.
(If yer offended...I'm kidding. If you agree...I'm dead serious.)
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tekknopirate




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wait a minute! You guy's(or girls) got me wrong sort of. I mean what I say but not in the way you think. I'm not saying ugly people shouldn't marry and good looking females should. I'm saying gay's shouldn't marry period. Good looking females should just leave it at the just for fun stage or what ever. I am by no means saying if they are gay they should die or be beat or anything. I'm just saying they shouldn't marry. And it's not some religon or hate speech I'm saying it's more like a feeling. A long unexplainable feeling. Like humans and animals. It's just instinct or something. And how can you not control how you feel. Boys like girls since birth it's just how people are girls aren't born liking girls at some point in there life when they are horny things happen and they det use to it. :lol: But as instinct go girls and girls are just ok.
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2004 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Marriage isn't a completely religious institution. You can be wed by a judge, you know. Also, there are religions that don't particularly care about marriage, such as Buddhism. Buddhism has no marriage rituals--people who get married in Buddhist countries tend to have marriage customs that are cultural.

I think most people seem to argue this issue from an "American Religious" perspective, which doesn't quite reflect the reality. Christianity is not the state religion of the USA--the USA is by definition, a secular country. Thus, the insitution of marriage as upheld by the government is also secular. Otherwise, how do you think atheists get married?

Also, as far as the argument concerning how homosexual couples do not produce offspring, they tend to be very willing to raise the children of parents who are incapable of rasing their own children. Thanks to the religious right extremists who are not only against abortion but birth control as well, there are many people who have "unwanted pregnancies," which result in "unwanted children."

If homosexual couples can adopt these "unwanted children" and give them love, by all means they shall have equal marriage rights.
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Saben

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, gays are not asking for religiously recognised marriage. We are asking for equal civil rights and the same "tag" attributed to heterosexual couples. If you want to make marriage a religious institution, then stop straight athiests from marrying and call all marriages "civil unions" unless they take place within a church. Having children or not does not influence whether or not I should get hospital visitation rights to see my dying boyfriend of 25 years (who would be a husband if it were legal).

But regardless, just because homosexuals cannot produce children naturally, it would be extremely naive to say that no homosexuals have children. Because of the nature of families in our society many homosexuals are closetted and have children in a straight relationship before ever realising they are gay and then later the children will live in a 'gay family'. Not to mention the fact that many gay couples WANT the responsibility of children through adoption, scientific breakthroughs or whatever means possible.

I have to admit that I am not against plural marriage, provided all three people are consenting adults, if it is a union of absolute love, then who am I to fight it? If all three people are soul mates (which would be rather rare, but possible) by all means then go for it. As for incest, isn't that legal in parts of Tennesee, Texas and Alabama anyway?

You have to remember, homosexuality is not a choice, it is just a pure matter of natural born attraction. Did you choose to like females? Did you choose to prefer blue eyes over brown eyes (or vice versa)? Did you choose to have a thing for people 10 years older than you? It is attraction pure and simple, maybe that seems superficial, but in my belief some level of attraction is essential in love and for me, I just can't find that level of attraction towards the majority of females. Some people make homosexuality a life style choice and I understand that as being necessary as a way of campaigning for their cause, but for me it is only really a small part of who I am and a part which says "I would prefer my soul mate to be a male", apart from that aspect of me, nothing else changes.
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sybillious

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

those who say that marriage is solely religious tend to overlook one critical yet obvious thing:

legality of marriage is a CIVIL matter, recognized by governments, so to say that religion dictates reality is rather ignorant.

sars also brought up some key points; religion is key only if the couple are religious or want that aspect included...judges, a captain of a ship or even 'elvis' can marry a couple, as long as they are empowered to do so. try to look beyond the religious sphere and see the issue as a whole, rather than just a part.
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2004 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

tekknopirate wrote:
Someone like jenna and another female I'm all in but when it's two over weight women I just think it's digusting and I start thinking it's just wrong. When I see the men they have squeeky voices and act like women basically.


1) Overweight women can be beautiful. It all depends on where you carry your weight. I have a friend who's 5'5" but weighs 160 pounds and she is just stunning because all that extra weight goes into the "right" areas. She gets asked out all the time. Overweight does not naturally mean ugly. Nor do beautiful people naturally have the best lives; especially when beauty is so subjective. What one person considers beautiful, another will consider horrifically ugly.

2) One of closest friends who happens to be gay is a 6'4" baritone weightlifter. He neither looks nor sounds like a woman, I assure you. The "gay men are so effiminate" stereotype is just that, a stereotype. Sure, there are some guys who actually do act like that - but to assume all do is to be quite arrogant and closeminded.

tekknopirate wrote:
But now I don't care what there story is I'm not about to even think about why they turned out like that. So basically If your not a perfect body female and only do lesbianic things for fun it's wrong. But when you start getting all deep with it and want to get married I start to thinking something is wrong with them. :shock:


So let's get this right -

1. You know, I'm straight, so I could be talking out of my ass here...but I don't think very many people choose to like the same sex. I know I never woke up one morning and thought "Hmm, I think I'll like boys." I just did. I've always been that way; I've never "switched over"; I feel nothing towards females other than "Oh, I like her hair. I wonder if I would look good with her cut?" or "She looks nice today." Yet I do have a couple friends who are bisexual; they're just attracted to both sexes. I do think there's something biological in you that sets whatever sex you're attracted to, and I don't think too many people just decide what gender they happen to be attracted to. It just seems to happen whether you choose that or not.


2. You think lesbian relationships that are only for sex are good, but lesbian relationships where two partners have a deep and passionate love are bad? I'm curious - Do you have this same standard with straight relationships?

VikiWaffu wrote:
This brings up something that my friend and I were talking about. Out of all the people who don't support homosexuality, I bet that a large portion of the men are some of the same guys who drool over girl/girl porn. I've known many men like that - they hate gays, yet still they love to see "hot chicks" together. It's so contradictory.


I agree, though I also want to add that it's hardly just the boys. Have you seen how much yaoi (male/male pairing) fanfiction is out there? Girls seem to enjoy the exact same voyeurism, albiet in a less visual format. (Which makes me wonder what exactly is the attraction to the female/female relationship for males or the male/male relationship for females?) On both sides of the issue, though, you'll find people who do not realize at all that hating "gays" or "lesbos" is condeming the practice they're, well, masterbating over.

Maximillian Quixote wrote:

Marriage is a religious institution first and a civil contract second.


Do you think that the country would be having this many problems with gay marriage if it were viewed as it is in Europe - as a civil contract first and a religious blessing later? (I know in some European countries - and possibly most or all - couples often get married in a courthouse in a small private ceremony, then later on have a larger, religious celebration.) Or would problems still exist if that viewpoint were dominate over here?

I don't see why civil unions wouldn't be a satisfactory compromise, though. So long as they are getting the same benefits that married people get from the goverment, then what is the issue? The only thing civil unions wouldn't grant that a marriage would is religious blessing.
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Saben

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2004 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Civil unions do not grant equal tax breaks and hospital visitation rights from what I understand, so 'nuff said. Plus, having a different name makes the minority continue to be a minority rather than an legally acknowledged, accepted and equal part of society.
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tekknopirate




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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2004 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok I'm in serious mode! I don't see why people of the same sex would want to get married. Something about marrige does seems like a special holy moment. But people always want to change stuff to there favor. It's only natural that if a man see's two good looking females enjoying each other company that it seems interesting. Being with another person of the same gender is like family and family or human and animal. Two people who are related will try to justify there actions so would some crazy man and his cat. Same sex coulples are no different, they are just trying to justify there actions. To to allow gay marriages would mean we would have to allow in family marriges as in brother-sister, sister-siter and so on. And pretty soon we'll have to allow human animal marraiges. Just because you claim you love something and you think you believe in it doesn't make it right. People values are wrong no a days. People take sympaty on people like same sex couples and think there treated wrong we'll there not. :|
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