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So are you finally past the routine suikoden thing?
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Ujitsuna

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd actually be inclined to say the "friend" in Suikoden V the hero kills is none other than Gizel Godwin. Yeah, you heard me right. They start at the begining of the game in rather similar situations but each choose rather different paths and ways to live their lives and in the end, fight in a duel - each one believing they'll be doing it for the good of Falena if they win. Sialeeds is just a badly informed world saving wananbe, how anyone can make such a drastic decision (betraying the hero and prolonging the war rather needlessly) based on knowing so little about the Sun, Dawn and Twilight Runes is beyond me.
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Rezard




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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

John Layfield wrote:
Anything related to Suikoden V was intentionally left out as spoilers were not allowed at the time so I can not even hint as such things.

Teo was Tir's father, not a friend. That was also a minor plot strand for one small portion of the game unlike the clear focus on Riou and Jowy forming the theme for Suikoden II. As for Sialeeds, she was not seperated from you, she actively betrayed you.

Lots of characters have special runes including Zerase, Aziboah, Sigfried and Feather, I see no reason to deride this.

Sialeeds was not killed by Freyjadour Falenas, she died of self-inflicted wounds caused by overuse of the Twilight Rune.


Those are minor details, so Teo was your father and not a friend, but he was someone close to Tir and was killed by him. He did the same role as the other characters. Understand friend as "someone close". It matter the same as plot mechanics.

Sure, Sialeeds was killed by overuse of the rune (just as jowy), but that only happen because Frey fought her or she wouldn't need to use more of that, so in reality he killed her by making her use the rune. Understand killed as "death caused by the hero" or "died fighting the hero". Again same as plot.

Game to game, there are some minor variations, but understand the structure of the plot is the same, just as tekknopirate posted.
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Sophita

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rezard, a lot of what you're talking about are just the dramatic conventions that every story has.

Your hero/protagonist character will always be special. Always. Normal sclubs are generally boring and an audience wouldn't really be interested in a role playing game where the entire plot was that the hero or heroine works hard, goes home, talks to their signifcant other/mates/family, maybe plays a game/reads a book/ scratches themself, and goes to bed only to repeat it the next day. It's hard to build an epic story about rebuilding a country on that. So yes, your protagonist will always be special in some way; whether it is in their runes or their social position or whatever; they are. (You've also left of Thomas, who has no unique rune at all. Depending on how you interpret hero, Kyril as well.)

And yes, many games, including most of the Suikoden games, feaure someone close to the main character dying. It's a good technique for building drama so it pops up a lot. There wouldn't be much emotional attachment to Random Soldier #342524 keeling over on the battefield. But when the character who is your avatar's sister dies to protect you, that's a lot more dramatic, and it means more to the player than any random soldier geting mowed down by Yuber on the battlefied because the player has (ideally) formed more of an attachment to Nanami. Similar for any deaths your hero may cause (though I'd disagree with Sialeeds being placed there; she did not die because of the hero, or fighting him; they weren't fighting at all on the Sol-Falena dam).

You might as well say Suikoden is a total rip-off of any revolution, because the basic theme: "Idealistic leader overthrows corrupt government" is the same every time. But be that as it may, the heros and villians are always quite different in their motivations - Thomas wanted to establish a safe spot in a war-torn land but Riou just wanted to go home again; Luc wanted to end his suffering and potentially stop the world of order coming forth; the Godwins wanted power to reshape Falena in their own image. The overarching themes remain, but the stories are different, and not just in the nitty gritty details.
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Rezard




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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I´m not against dramatical plot about a war. I love that kind of plot. I even think we can have some more of the Suikoden formula, but one day it won't be as good.

I am saying that Suikoden has strict formula, which some users are denying.

Now, you could try different things without dropping the drama involved in Suikoden. For instance, your bodyguard doesn't always need to die, it has become too obvious. Were you surprised when Lyon died? But Nanami's death was very emotional. Over time it gets lesser and lesser interesting.

About Thomas, as I said before, Suikoden III was a exception to the formula and there were dramatical scenes. It is possible to ignore the formula and still make a dramatic game.
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Ikano

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You have to keep in mind that Konami IS more or less showing some effort in experimenting with what in the world attracts us fans to it. However if you change it(the formula) too much all at once you get exactly the reactions that majority of long-time fans of Suikoden had to Suikoden 3 and 4.
And that's what they care about, of course they want more new fans but if they don't keep intact the number of fans they have now they aren't moving anywhere--little steps(/aka little changes) at a time is best. The more drastic changes they suddenly make...the higher the chances alot of fans would walk away.

And come on...Lyon and Nanami did not "die" the EXACT same way. Maybe you had a hunch that something would happen but you didn't know when.
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Sniper_Zegai

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like the old trend that konami had going with Suikoden I, but I do wanna see a little change but the basic principle to stay the same. Everytime they try to make leaps it does'nt really seem to work.

Suikoden 3 was'nt their best work in my opinion and 4 although entertaining was'nt anything special. They clearly learned form their mistakes with 5 but Im hoping they will give a whole new life to the Suikoden plot with the next installment.

And as for new fans, Im assuming they are people that have'nt played I&II, so most newby Suikoden players probably would'nt notice the simularities if the formula remained intact. But I still love Suikoden despite all that so its not all bad news.
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