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Fu Su Lu
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 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Well, ABORTION: There are two rights confronted, the right of the mother about her own body and the right to protect a new, incoming life. I say a woman has absolutely the right to decide if she wants to abort, but hell, if someones wants to abort DO IT before three months (thats the limit in Spain for the permited abortion to be payed by the State in case of raping) or even 5 months (if the baby is going to be born with severe malformations); but abortion (for example)an eight month fetus is very near of murder, as I said before. Abort YES but do it SOON
And Camus the Noble, if Religion can be taught in school out of any religious belief (!!)in an objetive, historical way, Im for it.
But considering how the world is with religious extremism growing, i think we shoud give example and take out of school any religion.
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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To Vinny
OK, OK, Teaching kids the very very basic outlines and principles of these advanced subjects you were talking about maybe a good idea. I thought you were just saying if we teach kids rocket science they will learn it for some reason.
To whoever mentioned it
That being said I think kids should be taught alot more about religion but in a strictly educational sense I would'nt want aload of preachers doing it or something. Becuase if the way the world is there is alot of misunderstanding about religion especially Islamic Religion right now and they are being targeted more and more becuase of terrorist extremism. History of other cultures is another imprtant thing. The people of Iraq and Iran are actually counrties full of an incredible history that I think would help people have more respect for the middle-east.
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Camus the Noble
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Sniper_Zegai wrote: |
| As for Camus. yes all laws to a certain extent are based on cartian moral pronciples. But the reason I agree with abortion is that nobody is hurt or affected as a result and as I said unless you can prove the fetus is thinking and feeling then nobody is hurt and nothing comes of it. |
I think you may have misunderstood me, Sniper. (Of course, it might be the other way around.) I do not believe that abortion is murder or, all else being equal, immoral in any sense. My point was that all laws (at least all legitimately grounded laws) are based on moral principles, so "Abortion is a personal moral choice" isn't a good argument for its legalization any more than it is for the legalization of murder. So if abortion is murder, I think it should be illegal; but I don't think it is, so it shouldn't be.
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| Some people think killing Cows for meat is murder but what can you do. |
Funny you should mention that, since I am a vegetarian and I do in fact take issue with the killing of cows for meat. I believe that slaughtering a cow for beef is far more immoral than having an abortion. I wouldn't use the word "murder," since murder is usually defined as the killing of a person, and cows are probably not persons, strictly speaking, in that they are not reasoning, self-aware animals. That said, they definitely have the capacity to suffer. If suffering is bad, then I can see no reason why a cow's suffering should not be counted as seriously as a human's suffering, all else being equal. Saying that our species deserves to be treated better simply by virtue of being our species is to draw a very arbitrary ethical line. And the methods of the factory farms that produce most of the beef in the U.S. (and I presume the U.K.) are such as to cause a good deal of suffering in a large number of sentient animals. In addition, the resources that go into meat production could be put to far better use. To connect this with the topic: If I could change the law (assuming a state of affairs in which this recommendation could be feasibly executed), I would eliminate the meat industry. I realize that, in the real world, this is a utopian and extremely impractical dream. Nevertheless, I strongly believe it to be the moral course of action.
| Rune hunter wrote: |
| Here check this news article on BBC if your not convinced there will be population decline |
Unless I'm missing something, the article does not say that there will be a population decline. All it says is that the population growth rate is going to decrease. The furthest it extrapolates to is 2050, at which point it says there will still be a population increase of some tens of millions each year. Now, if the birth rate continues to sink, obviously the world population will decrease, but you haven't established that that is expected to happen.
| Vincent Chase wrote: |
| I also disagree with the notion that abortion is murder, mostly due to the non-sentience of an unborn child (a clump of cells doesn't make a person). The only time abortion should ever be illegal is when there's a method of contraception that's 100% effective, all the time. |
If the fetus is not sentient, then why should abortion be illegal even if there is a perfect contraceptive? If the fetus is merely a "clump of cells," then I don't see anything wrong with terminating it, whether contraception was available or not. |
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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lol I actually have a thread about this on suikosource.com that I planned to bring over here and I will actually but anyway.
The UK has pretty strict laws on animal slaughter. And people have and will be arrested for inproper animal slaughter.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well, ABORTION: There are two rights confronted, the right of the mother about her own body and the right to protect a new, incoming life. I say a woman has absolutely the right to decide if she wants to abort, but hell, if someones wants to abort DO IT before three months (thats the limit in Spain for the permited abortion to be payed by the State in case of raping) or even 5 months (if the baby is going to be born with severe malformations); but abortion (for example)an eight month fetus is very near of murder, as I said before. Abort YES but do it SOON
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Current laws on abortion as far as I've heard favor abortion before the third trimester because it's in the country's interest that a fetus in the last stages of development counts very much as a human being. Also, abortion at that time is not only dangerous, the fetus also suffers more. Another method used is to induce labor in the mother so that she delivers a stillborn baby.
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I think you may have misunderstood me, Sniper. (Of course, it might be the other way around.) I do not believe that abortion is murder or, all else being equal, immoral in any sense. My point was that all laws (at least all legitimately grounded laws) are based on moral principles, so "Abortion is a personal moral choice" isn't a good argument for its legalization any more than it is for the legalization of murder. So if abortion is murder, I think it should be illegal; but I don't think it is, so it shouldn't be.
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This is a prickly issue, because of the definition of murder. A cursory study of religions, morals and ethics indicate that:
a) Certain religions such as Islam allow abortion underneath the conditions of rape, incest or extreme danger to the mother BEFORE 14 weeks. The reason for this is because Islam does not consider a baby to be alive before it has a soul, therefore, to abort after the 'soul' is inserted is to be considered a murderer.
b) Morals: There are people who say that abortion is immoral because to them it's murder; on the other hand, pro-choice people argue that the mother has a right to abort so that she can live a better life. (From the last survey I read, the second highest reason for an abortion was financial problems.) Who's right? No one knows.
c) Ethics: Some ethicists say that abortion is permissible if it's for the greatest good (utilitarianism). Some ethics however say that the killing of a life is always immoral, so since a fetus is a potential life, abortion must also be immoral.
*Shrugs* Looks like there's more to abortion than just personal choice. I think you already know that abortion is illegal in Malaysia, unless it endangers the mother. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure that not all laws are there for moral reasons, though all laws have at least some grounding in moral values.
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Unless I'm missing something, the article does not say that there will be a population decline. All it says is that the population growth rate is going to decrease. The furthest it extrapolates to is 2050, at which point it says there will still be a population increase of some tens of millions each year. Now, if the birth rate continues to sink, obviously the world population will decrease, but you haven't established that that is expected to happen.
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0311/p07s02-wogi.html Granted as the article stated forcasting the population of the future will still be guess work. But considering birth rates will continue to shrink(this has been a growing trend that will continue to occur). Its simple people are getting richer and the rich want less kids, sometime they want no kids at all. Population growth right now is mostly power by something called population momentum( it refers to the percentage of the population that are in their child bearing years who have not yet had children, and thus are scheduled to eventually have children which add to the population through reproduction.) Declining birth rates have the effect of either a) population aging or b) population decline. If it causes population aging the part of the population which is "Old"(around 2 billion by 2050) will sooner or later die out thus leading to quite a decline.
Heh, i just thought of a new rule.
People should be allowed to wear whatever they want in school or in public places-if people wanted to wear say a veil or a rosary to school no one should force that person to remove said item. No one in a public place or school should constrict a person freedom to choose what he or she wears. |
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Luceit
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0311/p07s02-wogi.html Granted as the article stated forcasting the population of the future will still be guess work. But considering birth rates will continue to shrink(this has been a growing trend that will continue to occur). Its simple people are getting richer and the rich want less kids, sometime they want no kids at all. Population growth right now is mostly power by something called population momentum( it refers to the percentage of the population that are in their child bearing years who have not yet had children, and thus are scheduled to eventually have children which add to the population through reproduction.) Declining birth rates have the effect of either a) population aging or b) population decline. If it causes population aging the part of the population which is "Old"(around 2 billion by 2050) will sooner or later die out thus leading to quite a decline.
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Unless a lot of abortions were that of femals/males and resulted in a population disparity, it won't affect population decline by much. A more accurate determinant is the country's wealth and the individual's lifestyle. Nowadays, women are giving birth later and later mostly because they have careers, but even less educated women are resisting giving birth earlier.
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People should be allowed to wear whatever they want in school or in public places-if people wanted to wear say a veil or a rosary to school no one should force that person to remove said item. No one in a public place or school should constrict a person freedom to choose what he or she wears.
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Hmm, did you know that the teenagers at Malaysia would love that? Even at college, certain items such as Satanic symbols are disallowed.
A new rule I'd like to introduce: Allow students to take part in political discussions. At present, students are disallowed from taking part in demonstrations, which is not a very good thing considering that students nowadays are very disinterested in political issues. This move may inspire more of them to become the future leaders of Malaysia.
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Amyral
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Fu Su Lu wrote: |
And Camus the Noble, if Religion can be taught in school out of any religious belief (!!)in an objetive, historical way, Im for it.
But considering how the world is with religious extremism growing, i think we shoud give example and take out of school any religion |
Where I go to school, religion courses aren't uncommon, and they don't attempt to indoctrinate, so it definitely can be done.
| Luceit wrote: |
A new rule I'd like to introduce: Allow students to take part in political discussions. At present, students are disallowed from taking part in demonstrations, which is not a very good thing considering that students nowadays are very disinterested in political issues. This move may inspire more of them to become the future leaders of Malaysia. |
Wow, that is a pretty strict rule. Here, people of student age are those who probably make up the largest numbers of those actually demonstrating (although one of the smaller numbers of those voting.) Disinterest is still high, but I can't really fathom as to the justification behind that rule. It really doesn't make any sense to me. |
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Luceit
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Wow, that is a pretty strict rule. Here, people of student age are those who probably make up the largest numbers of those actually demonstrating (although one of the smaller numbers of those voting.) Disinterest is still high, but I can't really fathom as to the justification behind that rule. It really doesn't make any sense to me.
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It might make more sense to you if you read up about the May 13th 1969 tragedy. Basically, this was part of a measure taken to ensure that race riots wouldn't happen again. However, as a result of this rule, students are highly disinterested in politics and some are protesting the Internal Security Act, which prohibits them from demonstrating. Basically, I feel that this law is outdated; as Malaysians, we have matured from the conflicts that spurred the riots in the first place.
P/S: Another less known reason is because the students like to call Government policies into question. We aren't THAT dumb. :P
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Amyral
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Luceit wrote: |
It might make more sense to you if you read up about the May 13th 1969 tragedy. Basically, this was part of a measure taken to ensure that race riots wouldn't happen again. However, as a result of this rule, students are highly disinterested in politics and some are protesting the Internal Security Act, which prohibits them from demonstrating. Basically, I feel that this law is outdated; as Malaysians, we have matured from the conflicts that spurred the riots in the first place. |
We've had race riots, and have advanced beyond it without any such laws, so if that's the real reason, I think it's a drastic overreaction and it's not a decent justification for me. Then again, I value our free speech, and if the results of that law are what you really described, then it only cements the value of it for me.
| Luceit wrote: |
| P/S: Another less known reason is because the students like to call Government policies into question. We aren't THAT dumb. :P |
And I'd bet my left nut that that's the real reason, they don't like the criticism, so they enact policies to try to make them disinterested in politics. |
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Fu Su Lu
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Amyral wrote: |
| Fu Su Lu wrote: |
And Camus the Noble, if Religion can be taught in school out of any religious belief (!!)in an objetive, historical way, Im for it.
But considering how the world is with religious extremism growing, i think we shoud give example and take out of school any religion |
Where I go to school, religion courses aren't uncommon, and they don't attempt to indoctrinate, so it definitely can be done. |
You dont get it.
Its ok what you say and I believe you but the problem will come when people of possibly (I dont know yours) different religions than yours want to be taught their religion. They usually take religion in a more seriously way than you or me.
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Religion:
I am talking about what I know in my country: everybody can be taught their own religion in school. And the catholic religion, the major religion here tends to be taught in a loose way, but I tell you, some teachers, lets say they dont take it so lightly. Read between the lines.
I think religion should be out of school. If parents or the childs want to learn about it, do it out of school time.
Different religions in school remark differences, and I personally would like that children, autochthonous and immigrants got used to each other without religion walls. If there is any french around will know what im talking about. In France all religious symbols were forbidden in school: no crosses, no veils,...
And hell, this 21 century, in my opinion religion in school is obsolete if its not like I said
| Fu Su Lu wrote: |
if Religion can be taught in school out of any religious belief (!!)in an objetive, historical way, Im for it.
But considering how the world is with religious extremism growing, i think we shoud give example and take out of school any religion. |
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Abortion
| Luceit wrote: |
Quote:
Well, ABORTION: There are two rights confronted, the right of the mother about her own body and the right to protect a new, incoming life. I say a woman has absolutely the right to decide if she wants to abort, but hell, if someones wants to abort DO IT before three months (thats the limit in Spain for the permited abortion to be payed by the State in case of raping) or even 5 months (if the baby is going to be born with severe malformations); but abortion (for example)an eight month fetus is very near of murder, as I said before. Abort YES but do it SOON
Current laws on abortion as far as I've heard favor abortion before the third trimester because it's in the country's interest that a fetus in the last stages of development counts very much as a human being. Also, abortion at that time is not only dangerous, the fetus also suffers more. Another method used is to induce labor in the mother so that she delivers a stillborn baby. |
Very similar to the laws in country.
Yeah, not only counts, I think its a human being. Im not a religion fanatic, as you will have noticed; but man, watching how a last stage of development fetus acts inside the mother its so shocking!
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Amyral
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Fu Su Lu wrote: |
You dont get it.
etc etc etc. |
I don't get how anything you say after this indicates this, and it far more shows that you didn't get what I said. I never say that there aren't people who attempt to indoctrinate others, I said that it's fully possible to teach the aspects, causes and effects of religion without attempting to indoctrinate. It doesn't matter if some teachers don't take it lightly, I was never claiming there weren't any. Read what is being said.
People can be taught religion without it being an emotional and highly fueled subject.
Last edited by Amyral on Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fu Su Lu
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Look dude, I dont intend to argue with you, better than quoting a simple line, quote everything, because what I mean is clear and I respect different opinions than mine, i just pointed that (I think) you didnt get what I said.
I am not going to exchange posts about this so, dont worry mods, lets the topic roll on in a constructive way :D
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Amyral
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Fu Su Lu wrote: |
| Look dude, I dont intend to argue with you, better than quoting a simple line, quote everything, because what I mean is clear and I respect different opinions than mine, i just pointed that (I think) you didnt get what I said. |
Nothing I said was meant in any way to be antagonistic. I quoted what was relevant to what I was saying. I don't want to get in an argument over it either, and am going to leave it at this, I only sought to clarify the point which you seemed to take in an antagonistic way. |
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abs9palisoc
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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1.Make a sixteen year old idependent.
2.treat people who kill endangered species as someone who killled a human being.
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I personally think the state should have the power to take away children if their parents can't support them. If parents don't have the resources, they should be put in a foster home or something
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3. I disagree with this |
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