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Rune hunter




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Abortion. Im all for it. I may sound eager but population is completly out of control and banning abortion will result in overwhelmed adoption agencies and a load of un-wanted children with unready and unwilling parents raising them.


I'd just like to point out that the population of the world is not actual out of control. On the contrary population birth rates have been dropping everywhere and very few countries have birth rates that are at replacement level(meaning there are 2.1 kids per family) and that we will actual stabalize by next few decades and then there would be a natural population decline :o
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Sniper_Zegai

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You may be right actually. Britian however is going downhill in that department and they are starting to talk about banning abortion. Which would'nt be good.
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Cedric

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm against abortion, but I'll defend the right you have to do it. Essentially, what you are committing is murder. That's a moral choice and I believe any government shouldn't have a say in that matter.

Anyway, another law I'd like to have is regarding search warrants. I think law enforcement should be able to search property with a high degree of probable cause. I have a little story that goes along with this.

One of my family's friends recently left her garage open, her car door unlocked, and her purse inside the car. She went inside the house for a couple of minutes and when she finally came out to the car, she found that her purse was missing. This surprised a lot of us because she lived in a very wealthy neighborhood, yet I guess that's more of attraction than a hindrance.

Anyway, one of the things inside her purse was her son's cell phone. That phone was very top of the line and it even had its own GPS module for whatever reason. Using the internet they were able to activate the software and literally trace the phone to the exact spot.

However, when they went to the police, they informed them that it would take a while to get a search warrant. I think that's garbage. You know where it is; why can't the police get it? Currently, search and seizure laws are too much into protocol. They're afraid that a court will not agree that the premises were searched correctly hence the case is bust. Furthermore, legal counter-action is always a possibility, which would hurt the department.

Something needs to be done when procedure overwrites common sense. Who knows where that phone is by now? I doubt the original person who stole it, kept it. Although, that would be great if he or she was a moron and pretended it was hers until that warrant comes into place.
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Camus the Noble

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Rune hunter wrote:
On the contrary population birth rates have been dropping everywhere and very few countries have birth rates that are at replacement level(meaning there are 2.1 kids per family) and that we will actual stabalize by next few decades and then there would be a natural population decline


Do you have any reference to back this up? According to the CIA World Factbook, of the 222 listed countries in 133 of them is the average fertility rate (the average number of children per woman) at or above 2.01. Obviously, there are other factors to take into account, such as the relative populations of the countries, but this would seem to contradict your assertion that "very few countries" have replacement level birth rates. The UN estimates that the world population will increase to 9.1 billion in 2050; true, birth rates will drop in the meantime, but I don't see anywhere that they are to drop to the point that there will be a general population decrease.

Cedric wrote:
I'm against abortion, but I'll defend the right you have to do it. Essentially, what you are committing is murder. That's a moral choice and I believe any government shouldn't have a say in that matter.


I respectfully disagree on two counts. First, I don't believe abortion is murder. At least, not in any morally significant sense; the question of whether abortion is murder is often brought up, but it's rarely defined precisely what murder means. You can define murder in a way that would include abortion, but after defining it thus you'd have to establish that "murder," so defined is bad. Ultimately, I don't think that a fetus or embryo has the sort of characteristics that would make terminating it particularly immoral, and certainly not as immoral as killing a full-grown person.

As for the second count: I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly, Cedric, but I believe you're saying that the government should not try to dictate "moral choices." However, aren't all laws based on some moral judgment about what's good or what's bad? If murder and rape are not immoral (that is, bad in some important sense), why should they be illegal?

I suppose I should add some more laws of my own. Well, I noticed that Fu Su Lu mentioned that religion should not be taught in school. I take the opposite stance; here, in America, religion is not a required part of the curriculum but I believe it should be. I'm not saying that schools should preach any religion, of course, but they should give their students an understanding of the different religions of the modern and historical world. First, religion is just too big a subject to ignore, and so teaching students about religions would aid their understanding of history and social studies generally. Second, and the main reason I support this policy, Americans are just woefully ignorant on religious matters. A professor at Boston University, Stephen Prothero, has written a book about this phenomenon, called Religious Illiteracy. According to Prothero's statistics, fifteen percent of U.S. teenagers can name a single major world religion. This is simply absurd. For American youths to know so little about one of the most important subjects in human history is unacceptable.

Another law I would enact would be major reform of the U.S.' electoral system. For those of you outside the U.S., I'll summarize what I see as the problem. The Congress has two houses, the first of which, the House of Representatives, is based more or less on proportional representation, but the second (and more powerful), the Senate, is made up of exactly two senators from each of the fifty states. In presidential elections, the winner is not necessarily the person who gets the most votes, but the person who gets over 270 electoral votes; each state has an electoral vote total equaling its number of representatives in both houses of Congress, and whoever gets the most votes in that state gets all the state's electoral votes. The result of this system is to give more power to the small states. Although California's population is many times that of Wyoming, they have the same number of representatives in the more powerful Senate, and in terms of electoral votes Wyoming has more relative to its population than California does. Also, since the states' distribution of electoral votes is winner-take-all, a Democratic voter in Texas (for example), a solidly Republican state, doesn't really matter very much. In fact, the system right now is such that the Democrats could almost guarantee victory in almost every election if all the Democrats in Texas would just move to Ohio, making Ohio a Democratic state and simultaneously raising its electoral vote count, while lowering Republican Texas' electoral vote count. (The Republicans, of course, could pull the same trick with different states.) Not a single person would have to be persuaded to change their mind; simply a different geographical distribution would change the outcome of the election. I believe that this shows clearly the flaws in the present system, and if I had the power I would change it so that each person's vote would count as much as any other's.
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Sniper_Zegai

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Unless you can prove to me that a barely grown fetus thinks and feels as an adult does then I will never be against abortion. Some people think killing Cows for meat is murder but what can you do. As for Camus. yes all laws to a certain extent are based on cartian moral pronciples. But the reason I agree with abortion is that nobody is hurt or affected as a result and as I said unless you can prove the fetus is thinking and feeling then nobody is hurt and nothing comes of it. The thing that really piss's me off though is all these self-righteous zealots who picket and act violently towards people who wish to have an abortion just so they can say to themselves "Thats my good deed for the day done"

I mean come on what kind of person thinks that they are so high and mighty that they can make ethical decisions for other people, but becuase these groups are a nice vote portion politicians get right behind them although most stay neutral if they can. Some of the things these people do is insane. I mean some abortion clinics actually have armed gaurds. One was even fire bombed and from what Ive heard its not that un-common for these places to come under violent attacks. "I beleive Im doing good and protecting life and decency in our society. Hey John are those firebombs ready yet?" Come on.

And for Cedric to his Search Warrant Law.

This is the best one Ive heard so far. I hate it when horrible criminals who commit unbeleivable crimes get off light on BS technicalities and Search Warrants and attaining evidence is one of those things.

The story that convinced me was when a woman who was doing a research project with her work colleague. She was feeling ill and went to the hospital and bear tranqiulisers were in her system and had been for a long time anyway long story short, it turns out he was giving her bear tranqiulisers from their research supplies and raping her while she was un-conscious. How did she find out? When she found several tapes of him recording these sex sessions and she had been raped over 100 times just on tape. The police could'nt get the tapes without his permission or a search warrant but afraid he may find out his "collection" had been disturbed he may try and destroy the tapes. Becuase she lives there they sent her to get them. When it came to trial the sicko's lawyers got the tapes thrown out becuase the house was rented in his name and she obtained them illegaly. The jury never saw the tapes and he got 2 months for stealing bear tranqiulisers. What a load of BS.
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Rune hunter




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My mistake, the replacement rate is actual 2.5.(heh, i must have only assumed you only needed 2.1 in order to have a stable population) But im 100% sure majority of countries are below or will soon be below this level.

Here check this news article on BBC if your not convinced there will be population decline http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3560433.stm

Oh and by the way a few decades ago the UN projected population would be around 11 billion by 2050. That's a sharp difference to todays projection of 9 billion people by 2050.

Its also quite interesting to note that western governments actual WANT there citizens to have kids http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4768644.stm
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Calupict

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Related with the search warrant, this is a long time 'conflict' between the formal procedure which is intended to guarantee the human rights while trying to keep the law not outlived its purpose to find a justice.

Imagine if the police can swept the your house whenever they like because they have suspect you to doing something illegal without any hard proof. Isn't it could against your privacy in some degree. That's why police need proof before have the warrant.

This is one of the criticism to The Miranda Warning because sometimes the proof of guilt is found when the suspect have not yet been read his Miranda Warning.

A 'good' rules of criminal procedure law will try to meet the procedure with the search of justice without jeopardizing one of them.
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Sniper_Zegai

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Im not saying the police should just go trashing peoples houses on rumor like information but at least a basic search can be issued to verify information. Instead of getting Judge approved warrants just to look under someones bed.
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Rune hunter




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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

Im not saying the police should just go trashing peoples houses on rumor like information but at least a basic search can be issued to verify information. Instead of getting Judge approved warrants just to look under someones bed.


How exactly do you define a "basic search"? If the evidence the police needed was in something that is usually very private like for example a diary and the police took the liberty to say "In order for us to complete our basic search we need to read your diary". Or in the case you stated Zegai the "tapes" only to find later there is nothing illegal in them, only private embarassing things the was never meant for the eyes of anyone except the owner.
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Vincent Chase

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Until the entire system of justice is rebuilt on something other than the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty, there will always be search warrants. They make sure any rights aren't violated (because we're all given the same rights, a fair trial being one of them) but I would like to see the process somehow sped up. Warrants should be able to be handed out immediately instead of having to get the approval of the court and whatever. It's the age of electric; we can't send and receive warrants with BlueTooth?

More laws!

1) Abortions for some... - I also disagree with the notion that abortion is murder, mostly due to the non-sentience of an unborn child (a clump of cells doesn't make a person). The only time abortion should ever be illegal is when there's a method of contraception that's 100% effective, all the time. Even if everyone uses condoms or oral birth control pills, mistakes can still happen. You also have to account for the teenagers (both the most virile and most fertile group of the population, but also the most sexually inexperienced) having more and more sex. They're just learning and shouldn't have to be burdened for the rest of their lives raising a child that they aren't prepared to handle, because mistakes will be made.

2) Improving measures for early education - Seriously, why can't kids aged 5-10 be taught the basics of Philosophy, Physics, Calculus and Psychology (among others)? It would much better prepare them for secondary and post secondary education, the only thing I can think of is some of the concepts of some fields (especially Philosophy and Psychology) are sexually-charged, but don't tell me that's the reason...I want some sociologist to do an experiment where they record what kids say amongst themselves, then try to get people to believe that some knowledge is just too taboo for them to learn.

3) Teachers college is paid for by the government in full - I've mentioned this before; how I'm pissed that I have to borrow money from the government to go to school only to be taught by someone with a doctorate in English but the personality of a piece of seaweed. Good teachers are extremely important, and if one is willing to follow that path, then they should learn all the necessary skills on the government's tab.
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Sniper_Zegai

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well you could have a simular information privilage thing simular to doctor, patient confidentiality. Lets say they find a german porn stash in your house if they release that information you can sue.

As for basic search, I mean just skim the surface. The majority of the time, when you knwo your gonna get searched. If a police officer asked to search your house and you say get a warrant then that gives you time to dispose or hide certain things that are illegal but you would'nt keep well hidden otherwise. This way searchs would be qiuck, easy and have an element of surprise. If nothing was damaged and it only took about 10 minutes. As long as you have nothing to hide why would it bother you.
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Amyral

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Vincent Chase wrote:

2) Improving measures for early education - Seriously, why can't kids aged 5-10 be taught the basics of Philosophy, Physics, Calculus and Psychology (among others)?


Would you have really, honestly, understood calculus at 5 years old? I mean, unless the basics of physics are something as mundane as "gravity pulls things down" I don't really understand why you would expect the average kid to understand it, as they generally take a level of base knowledge that they wouldn't be able to receive.
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Sniper_Zegai

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Vinny, as a rule of thumb I have to disagree with things Amyral says but on this one I have no choice lol.

If someone was teaching my 5 year this in school then I would be more concerned about my kid killing himself than not getting a proper education. It just would'nt work.
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Vincent Chase

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sniper Zegai says:
Quote:
If someone was teaching my 5 year this in school then I would be more concerned about my kid killing himself than not getting a proper education. It just would'nt work.


There always have been and always will be kids that commit suicide, regardless of their education.

It's been proven that exposing kids to things at a young age will help their intelligence develop (thank you, Psychology). Kids also have the highest IQs of any age group (though its a bit slanted in their favor an IQ of 200 isn't considered exceptional for a 5 year old), and because childhood is the time when neurons and neuroglia are developing and creating their synapses (the network through which the brain communicates with itself). It is because the brain is in such an early stage of development that children are so capable of understanding. When I was three years old I was reading at a grade six level, and by the time I was 8 I was well into some of the things that I've seen at University, and I'm not even exceptionally smart. This was thanks to my mother reading to me very frequently as a child.

And no, you don't get into some of the crazier things, like the abstract or just plain raw aspects of some of the disciplines. You keep the complexity out of some of the Philosophies of people like Descartes and St. Augustine and just give them a basic idea of it. For Physics you can get into the basic equations for things like Velocity and Density. I believe that its extremely possible to wean them onto the core material of some of the more complex subjects starting at 5 and by 10 you could have them comprehending Existentialism, Relativity and the Unconscious.

But why? Well, it'll open their minds at an earlier age, but for those that already know what they want to do at such a young age (and I knew a few) it would give them a chance to fully understand what they're going for. It would also streamline the whole Universities application process, and even if it didn't have a (positive) impact on their development (which it would), it would probably also mean that more people would be getting a post secondary education.

This doesn't just cover the things I listed, but you can really start to specialize and insert things like Archeology, Marine Biology, etc. It would cost an assload, but 20 years after its implemented and things are going nothing but up.
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Luceit

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I both agree and disagree with Vincent Chase on the issue of early education. While for the most part higher up abstract principles are too complex for children to grasp, there is nothing inherently wrong or insane by exposing them to great thinkers. Additionally, children like to ask questions and by holding these classes, they may find their curiousity satisfied, thus making them happier to learn new things.

And for the search warrant thing, I think I have to disagree. If you don't have search warrants, the criminal can also claim that the polic harmed his human rights and thus can get away. Like it or not, proper procedure defines the police, however inconvinient it is. Perhaps a better alternative would be to consider a more efficent way to do it and issue search warrants only for serious situations.
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