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Luceit
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 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Contrary to the views I express here, I actually do not fully support homosexuality either. It's just that calling homosexuality immoral is more of a judgment than just an opinion, and judgments should be better thought out. (Yes yes, I know it's my opinion.)
Put it this way, I support free speech for everyone until their speech may infringe on other people's inherent rights. Call it odd, but that's what people are practicing even in America. How else can you explain parents who want to censor books based on its content being harmful?
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| I honestly believe that being a gay or a lesbian is immoral. God only made two sexes so I think it's like going against the will of God. I think parents play an essential rule about how their kids are gonna turn up. I mean would'nt you hate it if your child was a homosexual I'm sure you will. So for me its a sin and its very immoral. |
And your justification for that is? I honestly think that your view is too simplistic, circular and assumptious.
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Rune hunter
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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But the right to express opinions without fear of being arrested leads to better results on the whole then having the threat of being hauled off on the night for expressing it.
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Actual the way its done in my country you dont neccesarily get hauled off in the night. You do get a fair trial and its there where you get to defend what you say. If what you said truly had no malice and is at least not a fabricated lie you go scot free.
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| It's a line that, once crossed, is at the whim of those who right the laws. Once the flood gate opens, trying to control the flow becomes near impossible. |
Its actual not as bad as it sounds. In my country those who judge are not the ones who make the law. And the ones who make the laws are subject to the judgement of others. So even if a lawmaker wanted to make a law preventing people from voicing there opinions it would never be allowed by our supreme court. However if a reasonable law(like a law preventing people from spewing fabrication in other words "libel") then both lawmakers/judge would agree. This isn't the proper thread for this discussion though. |
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Camus the Noble
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Dajuro wrote: |
| He didn't say he hated homosexuals, he said it was immoral and he also said cheating on your spouse is immoral. Maybe all the husbands who cheat on their wives should start calling him names too. |
The problem, of course, with this analogy is that many people disagree with his contention that homosexuality is immoral. Most of those people, on the other hand, would not disagree with his condemnation of adultery. So it hinges on whether you regard homosexuality and adultery as moral or immoral. A lot of people say the first is permissible while the second is not.
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| Saying that sexual behavior is beyond a person's control is just bizarre. That's like saying people are born sadists, or people are born child molesters. It's simply not true, and science has proved this many times. Saying that homosexuality is the same thing as being black, or in my case, being Cherokee is more than just offensive - it's a lie. |
Science has shown that people aren't born with homosexual tendencies? And many times, no less? That is news to me. Do you have any specific evidence to back this up?
Regardless, I've never understood the debate over whether being gay is a "choice" or "natural." I suppose that many those who support gay rights think that if they can prove it's "natural" everyone will acknowledge that it's okay, while the other side thinks that if it's a choice it must be "deviant," in the sense with all the negative connotations. However, it seems to me that neither of these conclusions follow. Even if homosexuality is a "choice," whatever that should be taken to mean, that would not at all mean that it is a wrong choice. If you were at the movie theater to see 300, and the person in front of you in the line chose to buy a ticket to Ghost Rider instead, you would hardly say they'd done something morally wrong. You might question their taste in film, perhaps, but it's really not a moral question.
Likewise, if homosexuality was hypothetically proven to be completely inborn, that wouldn't really change its moral character. If a person was born with a totally intractable drive to murder, we would not say "Oh, well, he didn't choose to be that way, so we can't say there's anything wrong with it." His killing people would still be a bad thing. We would certainly lock him up, and rightly so, since he would be a threat to society. The same could be said of homosexuality; if that is, homosexuality were immoral, which I certainly do not believe it to be. Interestingly, TIME Magazine is running an article about one of the leading Baptists conceding that homosexuality may not be totally, freely chosen. However, he doesn't think that this makes it any less of a sin. Actually, he believes that this may be a good thing, since if being gay is biological then one day we should be able to "cure" it, a task he and his theological allies will undertake with enthusiasm. So all in all I don't think the "choice v. nature" debate is really worth anything, except as a purely scientific question of fact.
| abs9palisoc wrote: |
| i Honestly belieeve that being a gay or a lesbian is imoral. god only made two sexes so i thinks its like going against the will of god. |
I'm not impressed with your justification. Even if God made two sexes, it doesn't really follow that he'd disapprove of being gay or lesbian. You'd be stretching even more to say that his disapproval would be planted in good reasons, unless you believe that anything God commands is a good enough reason in itself.
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| I mean wouldnt you hate it if your child was a homosexual im sure you will. |
What reason on Earth do you have for projecting your distastes onto the rest of us? If I had a gay son or daughter, I really wouldn't care that much, except insofar as I would be afraid that he or she would be reviled and possibly even physically attacked by homophobes in the community.
| Urn wrote: |
| I do have one gripe with homosexuality and that is the fact that it does not lead to reproduction, but there are plenty heterosexual people who don't want kids and choose not to reproduce. |
Well, Urn, it's not as though there's a shortage of people in the world. I'm sure those straight people who do have children will more than make up for the gays who don't. |
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Amyral
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Rune hunter wrote: |
Its actual not as bad as it sounds. In my country those who judge are not the ones who make the law. And the ones who make the laws are subject to the judgement of others. So even if a lawmaker wanted to make a law preventing people from voicing there opinions it would never be allowed by our supreme court. However if a reasonable law(like a law preventing people from spewing fabrication in other words "libel") then both lawmakers/judge would agree. This isn't the proper thread for this discussion though. |
You implied that it would be done based on opinion. Libel is not opinion, it's a malicious misstatement of fact. There's a key difference in that. What he said was not libel. There was no specific identification and it was opinion. I don't know how it is there, but here, he could not be sued for libel. There was no identification, so there was no particular person he could libel. In addition, what he said was pretty much opinion, not a statement of fact. I didn't take anything you suggested to mean that you were insinuating that what he said was libel, only that you thought his opinion was a reason why speech should be limited. However, if what you were trying to get at was libel, I completely disagree that he could be taken for libel, but I misunderstood and get your point. If what you were trying to get at is libel, I agree that libel law should exist, but it's not something that can punish people for stating opinions, at least not here.
However, libel suits aren't really a limit on speech so much. A limit on speech (at least here), seeks to prevent something from being disseminated. Libel law makes no attempt to do that. It's also a civil suit, not a state/federal level. I don't know how it works there, but you don't get arrested for libel here, you get sued and brought to court. If they can prove damages and that you actually did it, then they can win damage. You can't sue someone for libel based on opinion, it has to be a statement of fact, and it has to be directed at the person who is suing, rather than a general statement. |
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Admiral Ackbar
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: |
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If being gay was a choice do you honestly think there would be so many gay people? There's no benefit to being gay. The only thing gay people have to look forward to is discrimination. Some people act like gays just one day said "Hey, I think I'll be gay now" and POOF they changed. I can't think of anyone that would choose to be gay; look at all the gay bashing, discrimination, and religious conservatism of America. People are uncomfortable with alternate sexualities. We're raised to think that being straight is the only acceptable answer, and that we'll only live fulfilling lives by finding a mate of the opposite gender.
If I had a choice when I was in high school, when I was in love with my best friend, an unrequited love that pretty much ruined my life, I would be heterosexual today. I'm still gay. I spent night after night wishing I could become straight and have all the problems that my sexuality had brought me go away, but it never happened, because it wasn't going to go away. There's no where for it to go, and I had a hard time dealing with that. I was never ashamed of being gay, and I never felt that it was morally wrong or a perversion of nature or an affront to God, but it had brought me all kinds of stress that I didn't ask for and didn't need. People judge me before they meet me, I've lost friends, and so many other things. If I had a choice when I was younger, I would have been straight, if only to avoid the extreme amount of sexual stress and existential angst that comes with being gay.
The events in your life can shape who you are, but sexuality is much more complex than "it's a choice you make" or "you're born with it"; rarely is anything. Research is showing us that it's likely hereditary to the entire human species, a view that's becoming popular in the scientific community. I won't get into that, as it would be better for another thread, but even if it is hereditary to the human species, the events of your life, your upbringing, can factor in. This isn't to say that if a child turns out gay, there was something the parents could have done to make that child straight. I absolutely don't believe that for a moment.
These kinds of people only tell themselves that sexuality is a choice because it makes them sleep easier at night knowing that all those people they've condemned have done it to themselves. They don't want to think otherwise, because that would be too inconvenient and complex for their narrow minds to comprehend.
The "Dont Ask, Don't Tell" policy is a f*cking joke. It seemed nice at first, but ever since that policy has been instituted, there have been more gays outed than ever before.
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| The Coot wrote: |
| READ ABOVE POST |
I have a speech impedement, I was born with it and I accept it. Its absolutely nothing compared to the stigma of being gay in America but in primary school alot people made fun of me for it and I never knew why. Luckily my mother was great at explaining these sort of thing so even as a child I realised it was something I was born with and could'nt change.
I still have the same speech problem but it is'nt bad and people dont care and children can be cruel.
The point of this is people in America treat gay people like children treated me in primary school.
Theres no reason to do it. It does'nt affect them in the slightest and although it is'nt anyones "Fault" people just HAVE to blame someone.
To think that people all of a sudden "Hey you know what my life is too great, I feel like being gay just to piss everyone off" its so bloody stupid I cant beleive it.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
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And that's why people should watch their tongues. I have to say that 'being gay is a choice' is one of the stupidest and most irrational things things people can think of to justify gay bashing, because there's absolutely nothing at all to be gained from being called gay. Until there's real evidence that being gay is choice, I'm standing with my view that condemning gays is about as logical as condemning blacks for being blacks.
Fundamentally, even if homosexuality is choice, it's categorically amoral anyway, so there's no reason to call it immoral.
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CAPTAIN PLANET
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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I'm bisexual, and I always have been. I can't choose both, because I see an attractive guy and I'll be like "ZOMG HE'S CUTE." but I'll also see an attractive girl and say "ZOMG SHE'S HOT." I'd say about 77% of the time, I'm pretty open about it -- if someone asks me. I don't dance around saying I'm gay, but I don't deny it, either. Am I saying that I'm ashamed of it? No. Am I saying I hate flambuoyantly gay people? Of course not. I'm saying that it's just not gays and straights. There are, and have always been, people who like both.
Now, I don't think being gay is a choice. Not in the least. For the most part, I don't even argue with people when they say something like that, because I know trying to make them understand things in the eyes of somone who is gay or bi will not happen. I tend to ignore people saying that. I don't want to change everyone's opinion about gay people. Don't like 'em? Fine, it's your choice. Like 'em? Yay!
I agree with The Coot. If I had chosen to be gay or straight, I would have chosen straight. It would have just made things easier with Italian Catholic family. But, I am who I am, and I can't change that, and I won't. I just hate it when people treat other people like criminals because they are of different sexual orientation. It's not a crime. It's like being of a different race. It's not something bad, and it's not something that should be treated any less than anything else. So, when I saw on the news that some guy who nobody gave a rat's ass abotu said homosexuality is "immoral", I flipped a lid.
It's always been a known fact that the US Army and other national defense systems do not allow openly gay people. That's fine and dandy...do you KNOW how many people are gay and in the Army/Marnes/Navy/Air Force/etc? Tons. I know absolutely FLAMING gay guys that are like "yeah, when I served in the army..." Jigga what? I mean, if Mr. Army Man on the tv thinks he's in an all-straight people club, he's wrong.
Come to think of it, the Boy Scouts are like that, too. No gay men leading the boys, no gay boys in the scouts. In my opinion, that makes things even more wrong. If they're worried about a man molesting a little boy, then they should really think. There's plenty of straight adult men who molest little boys. Doesn't mean that because one man's gay, he'll touch little jimmy down the street.
So, in conclusion, we are all the same. If you feel like being homosexual is wrong, that's cool. Just don't treat gay men like crap and think lesbians are the coolz. Because in my opinion, and the opinions of many other gay, bisexual, and open-minded straight people, Gay = YAY! :D
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Timbo
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| abs9palisoc wrote: |
| i Honestly belieeve that being a gay or a lesbian is imoral. god only made two sexes so i thinks its like going against the will of god. I think parents play an essential rule about how thier kids is gonna turn up. I mean wouldnt you hate it if your child was a homosexual im sure you will. So for me its a sin and its very imoral. |
Two sexes? What about hemaphrodites? Do they not exist?
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abs9palisoc
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Urn Said
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must say that I absolutely would not hate my child if he turned out gay. Of course, there would be some degree of disappointment,
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You see what i meant when i said that you would not like it if your son or daughter gets gay i meant by it that you would be disaponited i did not say you will never love them. |
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Sniper_Zegai
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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lol I would'nt be dissapointed at all. They can always adopt. I know this law is different in America.
And I beleive god is what he made us and even if being gay is a "choice" thats another choice god has presented them with.
A bank robber who steals money to pay for his daughters medication is'nt immoral although wrong. A starving man who steals some bread to live is'nt immoral.
So how does being gay (even if by choice) as long as they abide by the law make someone immoral. Nobody suffers as a result of them being gay. And I know people who are anti-gay will be thinking "What about the poor families who have to put up with it" well they are just bloody selfish. They could accept their children, siblings and freinds for what they are but they CHOOSE not to accept it. I can say this for sure that the people who disown their family and freinds DO have a choice, the only reason all these ex-gay minestries and anti-gay people who are out there wont accept that people are born with a sexual preferance because it will force them to accept gays for what god made them to be. And would'nt it be the most horrible thing in the world if all those people who are afraid of the unknown would have to actually accept their own short-comings.
Nevermind, after all its only the gays that get hurt.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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You see what i meant when i said that you would not like it if your son or daughter gets gay i meant by it that you would be disaponited i did not say you will never love them.
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It is only my civilness that commands me to respond to this in a civil manner.
There will be some degree of disappointment, BECAUSE people are going to discriminate against them. Ever thought about that?
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John Layfield
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is running out of steam and is dangerously close to being shut. As we have rules about decorum, trying not to offend people's beliefs and so on, as distasteful though they may be in the eyes of some, it seems difficult to continue the discussion without ultimately attacking ("debating") people's core values, on both sides of the "argument".
However, I am incapable of gazing into the future. So until that actually happens, I'm keeping this thread open.
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Luceit
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if that's the case, I suppose we could take the discussion to a new topic. It really is off-topic by now, since it's almost entirely about the subject of homosexuality rather than the news article.
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Urn
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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You see what i meant when i said that you would not like it if your son or daughter gets gay i meant by it that you would be disaponited i did not say you will never love them.
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When referencing a statement, you should not simply pull out one part of the statement to try and make a point. My disappointment was not in the fact that my child would be gay, it would be because I would want grandchildren and would want for them to experience the joys of being a parent. Adoption is always an option, but it is not the same as actually giving birth to your very own child with your very own flesh and blood. The sexual orientation would not have any basis in my own personal disppointment and I would have no dislike for them choosing how they decide to express their love with another person.
As far as the topic goes, it has already been stated by his superior, Gayes, that he will not seek any apologies from General Pace. This topic is pretty much done and over. No reprimands, no apologies, just him being sorry for expressing his feelings publicly. Sorry, but there is no further need to continue this discussion in my point of view.
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