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Is The Safir Clan Extinct?
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Kalidor

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:23 am    Post subject: Is The Safir Clan Extinct? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There has been a topic about the Safir clan before, but I found it unsatisfactory in its treatment. I am very much interested about gathering any scraps of information that I can about the Safir Clan. Here is what I've found so far:
Suikox wrote:

One of the Six Clans of the Grasslands. They do not appear at all in the games, and the only time we hear of them is after Harmonian armies totally annihilate them.
SARSadmin's Comment: Never seen by the players at all, there is no information whatsoever about the Safir Clan.


Suikosource wrote:
The never-seen Safir Clan is one of the tribes of Grassland, but they were wiped out by Harmonia when the larger nation invaded.


Suikosource wrote:
The Lizard and Karaya Clans in the Grasslands ambush the Zexen Knights at a peace treaty negotiations at the Amur Plains following the Lizard Chief Zepon's murder, and fighting between the Grasslands and Zexen continues. Meanwhile, Harmonia attacks the Grasslands, capturing the Safir Clan and attempting to invade the Chisha Clan. In response, a young Grasslander boy named Hugo gains control of the True Fire Rune and becomes the new Flame Champion...


Due Fiumi wrote:
Before the war could escalate further, however, the forces of Harmonian began to move into the region, the fifty-year truce signed by the Flame Champion having expired. The Harmonian Army quickly destroyed the Safir Clan before pressing an attack on the Chisha Clan. Although the Harmonian forces were repelled at Chisha, the knowledge of the Harmonian invasion brought together the Zexen and Grassland forces together in alliance.


This is pretty much what I could find from sources that I consider reliable. What we have here is pretty much...well, not much of anything at all. All we have is that the Safir clan is defeated by the Harmonian Army on the way towards Chisha.

However, the thing that confuses me is that many of these descriptions use words like "destroyed, annihalated" and what have you. These would seem to suggest to my ear that the Harmonian's committed something similar to ethnic cleansing on the residents of Safir, killing them all. Is this really what happened?

What I'm looking for is reliable information on this subject. Quotes from Suikoden III would be particularly helpful, or anything from the manga (I know it isn't -officially- canon) would be very helpful. We know for certain that Safir was at least defeated by the Harmonian army. Were they all wiped out though?

My speculation is that they were not. This would seem to be against everything that we've seen of Harmonia's stance towards people's that they take over. In the example of places like Sanady and more pertinently the Grassland clan of Carna in Lu Buque, the territories are occupied but the people are left relatively unmolested. They are given the option of becoming Second Class citizens if they surrender, and are made Third Class citizens if they resist. Now, we don't know anything substantive about the Safir clan as to how militaristic they are, how large they are, etc. We do know that they did resist and were defeated by the Harmonians. Did the Harmonian's then proceed to decimate the clan, or were they simply treated as Lu Buque, who also resisted, was and made into Third Class citizens?

Now granted, Lu Buque had the specialty of riding the mantors. I believe it was mentioned in the game that was the reason they were treated pretty well, even though they were Third Class, because of their special skill. However, even Third Class groups are not totally destroyed.

Anyway, that's all speculation. I was wondering if our Suiko lore masters had any further information on Safir, and if not, what their speculation might be as to if they were actually destroyed, or simply suffered a military defeat?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have a feeling that the programmers of Suikoden just got lazy in developing the Safir clan. If ever they were destroyed or captured, the programmers could've made some story about the Safir clan. It seems to me they're avoiding the fact a Safir Clan actually existed. Most probably, the flame champion would've freed or visited the Safir Clan if it were destroyed or captured. Its only practical because you'll need all the help you can and they are fellow Grasslanders.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I imagine if the Safir had actually been wiped out by Harmonia, it would have been a much bigger deal. I don't think genocide would go without a mention by the Grasslanders. That's one of those things that gets turned into a rallying cry.

It does make sense that you never visit Safir, since the Harmonians take it over so fast. After that, the Grasslands army never has a chance to take a strong offensive, so they aren't able to push the Harmonians back that far. The Flame Champion isn't able to go rescue them because he's too busy fighting at Chisa and Brass. But in the end, Safir's just a MacGuffin to get you to rush to Chisa's aid.

Since the conflict comes to a peaceful resolution, I assume that Sasarai had his troops withdraw from Safir after Luc's defeat, thus restoring Safir to Grassland. I forget how exactly Sasarai handles the military aspect of this all. I think they withdraw to their old borders, and Le Buque remains under Harmonian rule, correct?

Anyway, there's nothing to suggest the Safir were eliminated rather than defeated, as I believe something of the magnitude would have been well noted.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shrew wrote:
Since the conflict comes to a peaceful resolution, I assume that Sasarai had his troops withdraw from Safir after Luc's defeat, thus restoring Safir to Grassland. I forget how exactly Sasarai handles the military aspect of this all. I think they withdraw to their old borders, and Le Buque remains under Harmonian rule, correct?
I'd like to mention that vol11 of the Suikoden 3 manga only mentions Sasari removing the blockade on Le Buque for sure

(it goes on mentioning something about Harmonia too busy at the moment "rounding up Luc's supporters" to work out further specifics of Le Buque's situation....
Although don't quote me on this second part >.> I'm reading the chinese translation of the manga and I'm not exactly an expert at translating......)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Just because they say they destroy does not mean they destroyed it completely in my opinion. I think the worst that means is that they were slaughtered however they did not become extint. And also the Safir Clan is made up of Kobolds. So if the Safir Clan was extinct so would all the Kobolds in the world would be extint. As well Vice Versa, The Safir Clan couldn't be extint since Kobolds could always join the Safir Clan.

Yes, Franz did say that he destroyed the Safir Clan. However Muto does not seem to broken up about it. Also when you usually here them say destroyed, they don't mean they literally destroyed the place. And of course destroy does not mean that you got rid of every single piece one by one. It just means you attack the place and blow it up. Even when you blow it up there are still items remaining from before that were not destroyed. The same goes for about this. Just because they say they destroyed the Safir Clan does not mean that the Safir Clan is no more. It does not mean that every single Kobold was killed.

This brings me to people in the situation of Muto. The Safir Clan couldn't be extinct. If Muto is still around he could get together with another female kobold and repopulate the safir Clan population. And if there was one there is bound to be more then one. I will use the Elf Tree Village for example. Of Course people were told not to leave but there were elves outside of the village. Of course you might of needed permission to leave the Safir Clan territories but that does not mean that they never left. Of course they were bound to leave for trade. So this means that they might have been gone. And also Look at the Attack on the Karaya Village. Luce and Anne we both know were in the village when it burned. THey both managed to escape from the Karaya Clan. IF they were able to escape from Karaya Clan when they were swarming even killing civilians when they were told not to kill the civilians. So the Kobolds of the Safir clan were capable of running away to other places in the Grasslands.

This Also brings me to a comment that Dupa brings up towards Shiba. Shiba did not know about who the Flame Champion was, nor did he know what he did. There, Dupa made a comment saying that Shiba must not know because he is from the South. So this leads that there may be 6 great clans that are the ideal of all of the clans. But there are other clans that follow under certain beliefs of the other clans and are part of other clans.
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Kalidor

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not really sure where to begin on your post, Mumbay, so I guess I'll just try and go at it piece by piece.

First of all, the Safir clan is not confirmed to be made up of Kobolds. Though you speak of it very definitivly, as the various reliable sources show in the quotes that I made in my first post, nothing is known about the cultural or racial origins of the Safir clan. All we know for certain is that they are located in the north-east of the Grassland beyond the Chisha clan, that they are considered to be part of the Six Clans, and that they were defeated by Harmonia during the Second Fire Bringer war. Anything beyond that is simply speculation. Now then people have speculated that the Safir clan may be kobolds, but I find this to be unlikely. If that were so and they were to follow any of the naming conventions of the rest of the Six Clans, that would make them the Kobold clan, such as we have the Duck clan and the Lizard clan. However, that isn't to say they aren't kobolds, only that nothing is certain.

Also, from that, we do not know that Muto is from the Safir clan. This is never brought up in the game and I don't believe it is in the manga either. Again, entirely speculation. In the future if such claims are made it will be best to provide evidence from an official source, something that is sanctioned and approved by Konami.

As for your thoughts about whether destroy means that the Safir clan was actually exterminated or not, I can agree with some of your points. Here is what the definition of destroy is, according to dictionary.com.

Quote:

1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay.
4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. to defeat completely.
–verb (used without object) 6. to engage in destruction.


So, if the Harmonian forces were to say that they destroyed the Safir clan, only the second definition of the word would mean that their people were entirely killed, wiped out, extinguished. The first definition seems to be applying more to objects than people. The third through fifth definitions seem to be what would fit best for this scenario. Some of the Safir people were slain, so that fits the third. The fourth also fits as the Safir clan territories were occupied by the Harmonians and they were neutralized in their ability to aid the rest of the Grassland in action against Harmonia. The fifth one hold true for the same reasons. I would call it a complete defeat to have your territory overrun and occupied by an invading enemy force.

Going by definition it would seem that though the Safir clan was defeated and occupied, that doesn't necessarily mean that they were wiped out. I'm beginning to think that it means that they likely staged a very minor battle against the Harmonians, suffered a few casualties and then were likely captured for the most part. Their clan holdings were then likely occupied by some Harmonian soldiers and then the main bulk of the force moved on. So yes, defeated, but not annihalated. That is all speculation though. Until we hear from Konami I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, and knowing Konami it's also likely that we'll never hear.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To continue on the topic that kobolds may be from Safir, but it's not confirmed and only speculation...

There are other villages that are not part of the Six Clans. Also, there are other villages that are part of the Six Clans. Just because we see villages called "Karaya Village" and such, it doesn't mean that those are the only villages for each clan. This is evident when a lizard (or was it a duck?) that said they were from a village to the south, when they were standing in whatever village they seemed to belong in.

My point is, no one knows what the Safir Clan has in it, and we may never know unless we visit the Grasslands again. Also, Kobolds from the grasslands may come from a small village that is not part of the Six Clans.

I feel the Safir Clan was not destroyed ort extinct, but just batterted a bit. Like the Karaya clan. The village was ruined, but the people were fine. That's how I interpreted it anyway.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If Safir were made up of kobolds, we'd probably have been told about it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think that the Safir Clan main village was destroyed, just like the Karayan village.
Now, trying to wipe out an entire clan would have been more than questionable. Likely, it's just because there has been no response from them but some still survive.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think the Safir clan is now under the control of Harmonia and are treated as third class citizens.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Suikoden III Character Guide has an entry on the Safir Clan, which mentions that Lu Buque mantor riders, under the order of Harmonia, annihilated / wiped out the Safir clan. The word used there definitely refers to them being "wiped out." Of course, "Safir Clan" in this context may only refer to the village, so maybe there are some survivors.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Indeed, though that does shed some light on the actual wording that has been used across various websites. I find it interesting that it was only the Lu Buque mantor riders were sent for this task. Was it them alone and no regular troops that were sent along with them? If it was only the mantor riders I would imagine that it would primarily be aerial bombardment. This could certainly "wipe out" the village, it's buildings and its infrastructure. However, I'm of the opinion that if it was solely an airstrike type attack then there would indeed be many survivors. I'm quite sure that once the citizens realised that they were under attack they would take what cover they could and hide out until the attack was over. Some would probably be killed in the initial bombardment for sure, but if that were the case then I think many would have survived.

Of course that is just my speculation. However I think it fits with the style of the mantor riders. They seem to be primarily an aerial bombardment force that would rather fight from the air than on the ground. Also, I don't think that if it was just the mantor riders they would be as stringent about wiping out the citizens of the Safir clan. As we can see there is a lot of resentment towards the Harmonians in the Lu Buque village with many of them remembering when they were part of the Grassland. I doubt the legionnares would be so eager to destory their former people. So long as they kept the Safir clan out of the war by destroying their village, they would be doing their job.

Still, we're left where we were at the start, with Konami being the keepers of the secret knowledge in this case :p.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was pretty surprised when I read that entry myself. I thought Harmonian soldiers attacked Lu Buque on foot, but I guess not. It still doesn't explain why you see none of the Safir folks in the game, though.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

True, you would think that some of them were out of town that day or something, especially since it was a surprise attack. You could still see Karayans around after their main village was destroyed, so why not the Safirans.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't bet on us every seeing a Safir character, or ever seeing any mention of it again. Suikoden 3 left out several things that were supposed to be in the Grasslands, according to previous games. They never mentioned Bob's destroyed lycanthrope village, or the Ebony Moon Knights that Georg was a part of, or the kobold village that supposedly existed there, and they never revealed anything about the the Safir Clan.

The Safir Clan could have been a horde of Cut Rabbits, and we wouldn't know.
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