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"In God We Trust" Gone Overboard
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Queen

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: "In God We Trust" Gone Overboard Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

After Michael Newdow's case to remove the clause, "In God We Trust" from the US national currency was dismissed, this woman saw it as her personal calling to make sure that the clause is pressent on every single state and federal building in California, and maybe even the US.

Quote:
Councilwoman Jacquie Sullivan, bolstered by a Monday court decision, is pressing on with plans to expand her "In God We Trust" program to the rest of the state.

"We're in this for the long haul," she said.

Monday, a federal judge in Sacramento dismissed Michael Newdow's lawsuit against the U.S. Congress, in which Newdow claimed that having the national motto "In God We Trust" printed on currency offended him and was unconstitutional.

Newdow has also continued to fight for the last several years to have the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance be declared unconstitutional; he has wanted the phrase "Under God" removed from the pledge recited in schools.

Brad Dacus, president of the Pacific Justice Institute, which litigated against Newdow, said in a press release, "For the sake of our posterity and the preservation of our unique history as a nation, we are committed to defending the national motto as long as it takes."

Sullivan sees the judge's ruling as a trend.

"The pendulum is starting to swing back," she said.

After she convinced the City Council to add "In God We Trust" to council chambers in 2002, Sullivan started an organization called "In God We Trust-America" that seeks to affix the motto to city halls throughout the nation.

On June 27, Sullivan and local leaders George Martin and Ray Dezember are holding a $125-a-plate fundraiser for the organization at Martin's home. Dacus will speak at the event, Sullivan said.

On July 30, Sullivan is also planning to have an anniversary celebration for the motto at the Rabobank Arena.

And today, she will send an e-mail to every city clerk in the state, asking them to consider adding the motto to every city hall.


I find this woman to be utterly mental. Whether or not she realizes or not, because obviously she doesn't care, "In God We Trust" is exclusively Judeo/Christian. What she is trying to accomplish is a proverbial slap in the face to every other religion or secular belief in America.

We are not the the middle east. We do not require that everyone be a Christian to live in this country. Therefore our currency and our pledge of allegiance should be inclusive to everyone. The only way to do this is remove any bias from our currency and pledge of allegiance.

Robin Williams has made a few suggestions as to what we can use to replace "In God We Trust" and "Under God"

"Instead of In God We Trust, "In Gates We Trust."

Or Instead of "Under God", "Under Canada, above Mexico" XD

What is everyone's thought on this article? Does anyone have any suggestions to replace the aforementioned clauses?
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Under God" can simply be removed. It doesn't have to be replaced with anything. That's how the Pledge of Allegiance was for most of the history of the United States until the two words were added in 1954 in a knee-jerk reaction against communism.

"In God We Trust" was added during the Civil War due to certain politicians thinking religion would be a uniting force in the harsh battles. Because of that, these words disappeared at times from certain coins. Only in 1938 was it adoped for all coins. As for paper bills, the phrase was adopted later and became uniform by the end of the 1960s.
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Hawk Thanatos

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I probably shouldn't answer this since thinking about religion makes me angry but I think if they're allowed to do this they should have to prove that "God" exists.

Did anyone hear about the guy who jumped into the lion enclosure at the zoo saying "God will save me, if he exists"?

...he was mauled to death by a lioness.
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Queen

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hawkthanatos wrote:
I probably shouldn't answer this since thinking about religion makes me angry but I think if they're allowed to do this they should have to prove that "God" exists.

Did anyone hear about the guy who jumped into the lion enclosure at the zoo saying "God will save me, if he exists"?

...he was mauled to death by a lioness.


XD I heard of that. That's hilarious.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think the entire thing's ridiculous. I cannot believe that anyone is truly offended by some tiny printed words, honestly if it bothers you then ignore it. But trying to expand it is just useless. I don't agree with what you're saying though Queen, that it's exclusively judeo-christian. Anyone who worships in any way can appreciate the saying and should be tolerant enough to realize that other sbelieve in different things. As a non-religious person this is a hard argument for me to take seriously, I just don't understand why everyone needs to make such a big deal about such tiny things.

Also Hawk, thank you for brightening my day with that little story. I wish I had been there to see it, with a video camera and everything.
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Queen

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If the clause were "In god We Trust" then maybe, but since it's "In God We Trust" it denotes a name and therefore a specific being and not a general being.

It's a big deal because people make a big deal out of it. I would prefer to see both removed, but since that's probably not going to happen in the near future I won't make a big deal about it. But, what this woman wants to do is a big deal, and is a big deal to me. It's annoying enough that the clauses already exist, but don't rub it in by having every federal and state building to display it on their front doors.

The constitution specifically states that the institutions of Church and State shall be separate. By having "In God We Trust", no matter how it's worded, posted on federal and state buildings would be in direct violation of the US constitution.
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Tron Bonne

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

why even make a big deal out of this? I think most people use credit cards and debit cards for most purchases anyway.

my take is, so long as it pays the bills, it can have the giant spaghetti monster on the money for all i care.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The badguy from Tron wrote:
why even make a big deal out of this? I think most people use credit cards and debit cards for most purchases anyway.

my take is, so long as it pays the bills, it can have the giant spaghetti monster on the money for all i care.


Unfortuately it's about more than just the money, at least with this article.
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Scarlet Assassin

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You're going to tell me that it actually irritates you that American currency bears some TINY, miniscule lettering that denotes a non-specified deity? Come on, you're making a mountain out of an anthill here. Does it hurt anybody? Would it harm anyone to have it on a federal building? No, and honestly I don't see what the big deal is. I'm not a judeo-christian, I'm not even a spiritual person and I've never given this issue a second though. Are you going to honestly tell me that these words are more harmful to non-christian, yet religious people then they are to people who believe that there are more important things in life than religion?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The article I posted is NOT about the money. It is about pushing a religious statement onto a State institution.

And Yes, it would be harmful to put on a federal building. When the founding fathers wrote the constituion they specifically noted that Church and State shall be separate. They did this because they knew from experience that mixing religion with government was a bad thing.(example: King Henry VIII and England)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What's important to different people is... different, because everyone is an individual. Let's not get into arguments over, "why do you care about that?" It's not productive because it gets personal (that means, that sort of discussion stops).
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have no problem with those words and I think they inspire people to be more obedient to god. Religion is basically a leash to keep people from being naughty any how.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gabocha wrote:
I have no problem with those words and I think they inspire people to be more obedient to god. Religion is basically a leash to keep people from being naughty any how.


No, what keeps people from being "naughty" is being brought up correctly, and being instilled universal morals. Hiding behind a God and claiming that is what keeps you on the straight and narrow is a load of Bull.

Nobody should have a religion forced upon them. By trying to force inclusion of that phrase on all governmental buildings, you exclude a large section of the world aka. America. There is no need at all to have a meaningless comment added to anything of extension to govermental office, it aligns government to a religion, and government needs to be partisan.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gabocha, that is ridiculous. The "religion is necessary to keep people in line" argument is tired and, frankly, very offensive. I'm an atheist, and I don't really feel that I would be any more moral if I believed in a deity and/or an afterlife, and the insinuation made by your statements -- that atheists most be immoral -- is downright ludicrous. Most secular folks lead lives as moral as or more moral than religious people. For some people, doing good is its own reward; for humanists especially this is true. In the words of Kurt Vonnegut:

Kurt Vonnegut wrote:
Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.


As Ley said, a person's upbringing has much more to do with their behavior than their religious inclinations. If a person is taught to hold certain moral beliefs, they are likely to hold those beliefs throughout their life, and have their actions influenced by them. If a person's upbringing inclines them more toward cruelty and selfishness, that is the kind of person they will probably become. Religion may or may not play a role in a person's upbringing; if it does, there is a significant possibility that it may make a person less moral. Think of all the atrocities committed and wars fought in the name of religion throughout history and up to the present day. The Inquisition, 9/11, the executions of witches, the persecution of homosexuals, the Wars of Religion, the Thirty Years' War, the executions of Servetus and Bruno, and the suppression of science all come to mind. For an even better example, the Bible contains a few God-approved genocides and massacres, some carried out by God personally.

Besides, the arguments from morality in favor of theism are very flimsy upon further examination. Either what God says to be moral is moral because God says it is, or God says it is moral because it is moral itself. The first case degenerates to "might makes right," which is a rather atrocious concept, while the second case makes God unnecessary, if morality exists independent of the deity.

Lest this post get too off-topic, I should probably offer my views on the issue at hand. I am absolutely, 100% opposed to the presence of the phrase "In God We Trust" on governmental buildings or currency. It quite clearly amounts to a government endorsement of religion, and probably, more narrowly, monotheism. It discriminates against atheists by endorsing the idea of a deity; many Hindus and Buddhists (and pantheists in general) don't have anything which could be called "God" is most senses of the word. Brahman isn't exactly something that one would put their trust in, and the same goes for the Creator-God of the deists. That last one is particularly ironic considering that many of the founders of the United States were deists.

So, in the end, "In God We Trust" can be seen to only refer to a monotheistic god without any stretches of interpretation. Besides, it's clear that the phrase was intended to signify trust in the Christian God.
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Eden

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I am way too humble to say that I know what Gabocha wants to say, but I believe his choice of words were either pretty bad in some way or he was rather thinking of religion in a more historical way, although he is talking about modern religion and ways to express this in connection with politics, because I can't imagine that he really thinks that religious persons are living with a greater moral standard then people who don't believe in religious dogmata.
Perhaps Gabocha was really thinking of a time as religion was a way to keep different individuals under one rule, even if thisrule came from an unseen deity...

I confess that this wouldn't be very convenient if we are talking about the thread's topic, but it would be possible.

In order to write something more or less relevant concerning the actual topic: I don't believe that those religious phrases should be a part of a politic in which it isn't the faith of every citicen. This is of course a lot more different in nations whose politics are based almost completely on some kind of holy book... Anyhow. to keep something like in God we trust as present as it is today, it seems somehow to exclude those people who don't trust in god, because it gives the impression that those laws don't work for those...
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