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Valec
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 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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It accomplishes that people won't do these things because they know they will get it as well. If somebody realizes "Hey, if I light this lady on fire, I'm gonna get lit up too."
I'm not much for this peace and love crap. You can't be in between. Either be serious or love. Neutralism never solves any problems and loving just makes them worse as the person knows they can step all over you. All you can do is execute a punishement equal to the crime commited.
Use all the pretty words you like. If a guy can get away with it and he wants to, he's gonna do it. Sure, you have morals, but the dude doing it in the first place sure as hell doesn't use them. |
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| It accomplishes that people won't do these things because they know they will get it as well. If somebody realizes "Hey, if I light this lady on fire, I'm gonna get lit up too." |
Do you know how barbaric and pathetic that sounds? Sure, and let's beat the five year olds for stealing candy out of curiousity while we're at it. If we're gonna take the time to impound fear into humanity, then I think we have the time to sit down and talk with them.
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| I'm not much for this peace and love crap. You can't be in between. Either be serious or love. Neutralism never solves any problems and loving just makes them worse as the person knows they can step all over you. All you can do is execute a punishement equal to the crime commited. |
Uh, no. Peace and love means that nobody feels the need to step on anyone.
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| Use all the pretty words you like. If a guy can get away with it and he wants to, he's gonna do it. Sure, you have morals, but the dude doing it in the first place sure as hell doesn't use them. |
No, he's gonna do it because he's messed up in the head to begin with. Know why? Because he lives in a world where crime and punishment are normal everyday things and human beings like you feel no need to correct that. Sorry. |
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Queen
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| St. Ajora wrote: |
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| Personally I think the murder/rapist/torturer should receive the EXACT same punishment they delt their victims, in the EXACT same manner. That way the punishment will fit the crime, literally. |
And...what exactly does that accomplish? I understand about not being deserving to live, but what does retaliating with the same vicious behaviour, accomplish? It riles everyone up and teaches us to hate. You're just trapped in a negative mentality that won't bring your loved one back, nor ease what pain they had to go through. |
The short answer: The concept that one would learn is that it's not as fun when it's happening to you.
I don't think it teaches us to hate. I think it makes us less tolerant to being trampled on by people who think, and in some cases know, that they can do pretty much whatever they want and get away with it.
I live in an area a couple hours north of Los Angeles. The area is known for it's "tough love" routine. Los Angeles robbers have had to learn this the hard way. Our law enforcement is pretty decent, and I'm not exactly talking about the cops. Our citizens are very protective of their stuff(and their lives), so if someone, especially from LA(thinking that we're easy targets just because we seem ignorant) tries to make off with some of our goodies, they generally go home in a bag.
Up here, we do not tolerate crime and we're very blunt about it. Aside from the occasional stabbing, usually by gangs and such, not much goes on.
Punchdoll can confirm my statement.
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Valec
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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... I don't like you. Not everything can be solved by talking things out. I didn't say to beat up a five year old either. People get angry when you put words into their mouths and that is what causes many of our problems.
Anyway, he's messed up because
A. He was never disciplined or paid attention to as a child
B. People like you softening everything
I'm not saying we beat the living crap out of a little kid. Until the age of 18, it's the parent's responsibility for discipline and such. After 18, the crimes they do are their problem.
In case you didn't know it costs money to feed prisoners. Why give a convicted murderer free food and board when that money could go to some little kid dying from hunger on the streets? Think these things through before you start into all that hippy crap. The world is an imperfect place. We can't get everything we want. |
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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The short answer: The concept that one would learn is that it's not as fun when it's happening to you.
I don't think it teaches us to hate. I think it makes us less tolerant to being trampled on by people who think, and in some cases know, that they can do pretty much whatever they want and get away with it.
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So let me get this straight. It's okay for a perfectly-sane person to bash in the brains of a pyschopath, but it is declared not okay and unbelievable for said pyschopath. Can someone explain this to me because I really don't get it :\ It's not a case of doing "whatever you want". This is a pyschological issue that runs deeper than knowing you can get away with something.
Besides, what else are you acting out of when you voluntarily kill someone who has hit close to home? Are you being sympathetic? Compassionate? No...you're killing them because of hate.
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| ... I don't like you. Not everything can be solved by talking things out. I didn't say to beat up a five year old either. People get angry when you put words into their mouths and that is what causes many of our problems |
Thanks for proving my point. And no, of course not everything can be solved by talking. People don't *have* to get angry when people *gasp* put words in their mouths. That's their problem if they choose to be upset by every little inconvenience.
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A. He was never disciplined or paid attention to as a child
B. People like you softening everything |
So wait wait...this guy is a nutball because I try to be friendly with everyone and advocate for the rights of every human being? Well gee, you learn something new everyday.
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| I'm not saying we beat the living crap out of a little kid. Until the age of 18, it's the parent's responsibility for discipline and such. After 18, the crimes they do are their problem. |
I beg to differ. Kids are "allowed" to have sex at age 16 in Canada, but does this mean they aren't responsible for their sexual well being because they're not 18? How many people here did things as a young teenager and fully expected their parents to clean up after their messes? A 12 year old is capable of making decisions. Being 18 and over has nothing to do with realizing responsibility. That's just an age.
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| In case you didn't know it costs money to feed prisoners. Why give a convicted murderer free food and board when that money could go to some little kid dying from hunger on the streets? |
Then why are so many people starving to death? Until you give me conclusive proof that this guy's death means that a little girl in Ethiopia is alive today, I just can't believe you. It's just not happening.
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| Think these things through before you start into all that hippy crap. The world is an imperfect place. We can't get everything we want. |
I didn't insult your beliefs, so I don't expect you to insult mine. My "hippy crap" is something I live by and again, thanks for proving my point. You're just being defensive and insulting so I'll ask you quietly to please tone it down because debates need not get so personal.
This world doesn't have to be imperfect. Give it a shot. Smile sometimes. Adopt a child. Go out of your way to be friendly instead of laughing at someone who does not think the same as you.
Last edited by St. Ajora on Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Valec
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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........So we let them walk all over us?!
Hate has already started. It's a vicious circle that never ends. You mean if I were to walk in your home and kill your family and friends, you wouldn't do a thing? Grow up. |
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Queen
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Valec wrote: |
... I don't like you. Not everything can be solved by talking things out. I didn't say to beat up a five year old either. People get angry when you put words into their mouths and that is what causes many of our problems.
Anyway, he's messed up because
A. He was never disciplined or paid attention to as a child
B. People like you softening everything
I'm not saying we beat the living crap out of a little kid. Until the age of 18, it's the parent's responsibility for discipline and such. After 18, the crimes they do are their problem.
In case you didn't know it costs money to feed prisoners. Why give a convicted murderer free food and board when that money could go to some little kid dying from hunger on the streets? Think these things through before you start into all that hippy crap. The world is an imperfect place. We can't get everything we want. |
I agree with you. With the money that goes, from our own taxes, into the mouths of these prisoners, we could be nipping the problem in the bud. Better quality education, housing, food, most things that cause the degredation of society.
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Valec wrote: |
........So we let them walk all over us?!
Hate has already started. It's a vicious circle that never ends. You mean if I were to walk in your home and kill your family and friends, you wouldn't do a thing? Grow up. |
I never said it was wrong to feel grief. But killing my family's murderers would only further bring me into a life of despair and grief. Grow up? I'm not the one getting all emo in a perfectly harmless thread that you have made personal. |
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Valec
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| You made it personal by talking me into the ground and stating things that were never said. I simply mean that with laws in place your options are limited. If laws weren't in place, it would still be limited. The world can't be perfect because of our individuality. Do I want it to be peaceful? Yes. That doesn't stop some nutcase from killing you, now does it? It would be nice, but humans hate. There is no stopping it. It's a thing we all do. No matter what you say, you've hated someone. I myself want revenge on my ex-stepdad for abusing me for 12 years. If I get the chance, I will kill him. I feel that is a rather tame punishment for what I went through. You simply don't understand what makes people hate as you've probably never felt true torture. Have you ever gone for 12 years being cursed into the ground every waking moment of your life and getting thrown into walls? Have you ever been locked outside, forbidden to get anything to drink or leave your steps when it's over 100 degrees farenheit? People hate people who wrong them. If you stop the violence, it will end. But it's too late. It has started and now there will always be that one person who's hate inspires sadness which becomes resentment, even hate. |
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Queen
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Valec wrote: |
| You made it personal by talking me into the ground and stating things that were never said. I simply mean that with laws in place your options are limited. If laws weren't in place, it would still be limited. The world can't be perfect because of our individuality. Do I want it to be peaceful? Yes. That doesn't stop some nutcase from killing you, now does it? It would be nice, but humans hate. There is no stopping it. It's a thing we all do. No matter what you say, you've hated someone. I myself want revenge on my ex-stepdad for abusing me for 12 years. If I get the chance, I will kill him. I feel that is a rather tame punishment for what I went through. You simply don't understand what makes people hate as you've probably never felt true torture. Have you ever gone for 12 years being cursed into the ground every waking moment of your life and getting thrown into walls? Have you ever been locked outside, forbidden to get anything to drink or leave your steps when it's over 100 degrees farenheit? People hate people who wrong them. If you stop the violence, it will end. But it's too late. It has started and now there will always be that one person who's hate inspires sadness which becomes resentment, even hate. |
Valec, calm down. This isn't something you want to tell someone when you're angry.
St. Ajora, it might be a good idea to lay off for awhile. I'll do the same.
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St. Ajora
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| You made it personal by talking me into the ground and stating things that were never said. |
I wasn't talking you into the ground, I was replying to your comments. It's called suggestive discussion and never in one place did I say, "You're stating this and this and this and you're an idiot because of it".
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| Do I want it to be peaceful? Yes. That doesn't stop some nutcase from killing you, now does it? It would be nice, but humans hate. There is no stopping it. It's a thing we all do. No matter what you say, you've hated someone. |
Of course it doesn't. But for someone who may wish that the world is peaceful, you're certainly comingg off as very closed-minded and opposed to simple alternatives to avoid conflict.
And no, I never said I haven't hated someone. This is where you're reading too quickly- I never said I was perfect and that the solutions I listed were quick easy steps for a peaceful world. I said they were a start. I've had my share of anger, grief and hating people. The difference is, I don't embrace that and acquiese defeat without even trying.
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| You simply don't understand what makes people hate as you've probably never felt true torture. Have you ever gone for 12 years being cursed into the ground every waking moment of your life and getting thrown into walls? Have you ever been locked outside, forbidden to get anything to drink or leave your steps when it's over 100 degrees farenheit? |
No, I haven't gone through any of that. Does that mean I'm not entitled to my opinion? I have my fair share of woes that includes a lot of emotional abuse from my younger years. And yes, I've had my fair share of wishing hurt upon those who stepped on me- but I try to move past it. Rise above it. And deal with it. I don't know what the best solution for you is, because that's none of my business. But being hurt in the past doesn't automatically mean that one has to life a life of hatred of negativity.
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| If you stop the violence, it will end. But it's too late. It has started and now there will always be that one person who's hate inspires sadness which becomes resentment, even hate. |
How is it too late? It's never too late to try and fix your life- and others around you.
EDIT: I feel as if we're moving in the right direction- I don't think Valec means any harm in what he's saying, and rather, it's a bit of a he-said she-said kinda thing. I'll see how he replys and may back out from there. |
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Esra
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm all for giving a Sick SOB like this just what he deserves, But I've slowly moved away from the thought of the Death penalty being of any good. Human nature doesn't stem straight to the thought of murder. As a matter of fact, most try to avoid it unless it is a last or 'the best' option available.
There are three categories that most if not all murders fall under.
1: The first is out of passion: where a person becomes so overwhelmed by their emotions that they do not realize the severity of their actions until they've settled down and it's already done.
2: The second is the killer-to-be is 100% sure in his mind that he can get away with this and nothing will happen to him: Basically they think that their plan is completely fullproof and he/she can't be accused. This is usually out of greed.
3: Last is Acceptance: They know the risks and what will happen, but they believe in their hearts/Minds that it is worth the cost as long as they succeed.
It is because of these three points that really renders The death penalty useless since these kind of actions are simply apart of every persons mentality to some extent. Even though the death penalty is enforced it doesn't change anything for really any better. If anything it would make it worse since it gives the criminals an easy way out.
And what about for the victim's families and loved ones? Does it really change anything to simply quench the feeling of Vengence to the point that makes you no better than the monster who started this cycle?
Hate Creates Hate, More Hate Creates Anger and Fear, Fear and Anger Creates Desire, And Desire Starts the Cycle once more with the actions that come from this.
You have to ask yourself, Are you better than that person that you despise so much? What do you do to justify this? The Death Penalty is an obviously simple choice to want to choose- But it Solves Nothing in the end.
I have A LOT of different ideas on what should be done But they break numberous laws on humane treatment. Lets just say that the death penalty would not be as quick and 'Humane' as our current one... but that's why I'm not in charge.
The answer lies somewhere and although I don't know what that answer is, it starts with all of us (all people). The answer lies in all of us as a whole. It's very, VERY easy to start the cycle of hate. WE have to be strong enough to see it an stop it from continuing. Until then, It's just human nature. |
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Eden
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Valec wrote: |
| Personally I think the murder/rapist/torturer should receive the EXACT same punishment they delt their victims, in the EXACT same manner. That way the punishment will fit the crime, literally. |
Why just the persons you named? What is with the guy who drives drunk and hit another person who will be paralysed after this probably forever? Shouldn't we drive over the body of this guy, because he is fault? And what is with the doctor who wants to go golfing and in his haste forgets a item in the patient's stomach? Shouldn't we cut his body and stick in some items too? You say this isn't really the same? Why not? One person does something, because he is a sick and ill person and the other one, because he doesn't care enough about somebody's life to make something well or make something not... Shouldn't they be treat the same? I think this is where it leads if we follow your advice.
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| It accomplishes that people won't do these things because they know they will get it as well. If somebody realizes "Hey, if I light this lady on fire, I'm gonna get lit up too." |
You want to do the same to murderers what they have done to their victims? Strange, Britney... (Edit: I apologise better now for this. Sorry)
Okay, that was my mistake, because you haven't wrote "again". Sorry, but nonetheless it is a very sad point. You don't rape somebody, because then somebody will rape you? Aside from the criminial's thinking that they won't be ever caught I believe it is sad that we don't want to teach them and everbody that the human life is precious and shouldn't be touched and hurt instead of raising fear for punishment...
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I'm not much for this peace and love crap. You can't be in between. Either be serious or love. Neutralism never solves any problems and loving just makes them worse as the person knows they can step all over you. All you can do is execute a punishement equal to the crime commited.
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You do really think this will help? Won't the criminal think now (after commiting the crime and receiving the punishment) everything is evenly. "Now you did something to me it is my turn to make the next move?" I don't know. but it isn't less likely than that he will learn something if the victim and its relatives teach how to forgive or at least not to demand the same procedure.
[quote="St. Ajora"]No, he's gonna do it because he's messed up in the head to begin with. Know why? Because he lives in a world where crime and punishment are normal everyday things and human beings like you feel no need to correct that. Sorry. |
That is exactly what I feel and think.
[quote="Queen"]I don't think it teaches us to hate. I think it makes us less tolerant to being trampled on by people who think, and in some cases know, that they can do pretty much whatever they want and get away with it. |
No, either the criminal thinks he won't be caught or he doesn't think about the possibility of getting caught at all... This is why they commit crimes in the end (as one reason). And how are we supposed to be less tolerant? We are punishing already and we don't encourage to commit crimes...
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| In case you didn't know it costs money to feed prisoners. Why give a convicted murderer free food and board when that money could go to some little kid dying from hunger on the streets? Think these things through before you start into all that hippy crap. The world is an imperfect place. We can't get everything we want. |
Please, you don't want us to tell that the money spend on criminals would otherwise used to help homeless, starving kids? You must be kidding...
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| Do I want it to be peaceful? Yes. That doesn't stop some nutcase from killing you, now does it? It would be nice, but humans hate. There is no stopping it. It's a thing we all do. No matter what you say, you've hated someone. |
This wasn't directed at me, but I want to answer: I know a bit what you are talking about, because I little place in my heart is full of dark desires and hatress. I can fall easily to bad feelings towards someone who did me wrong, but since I know about it I am living rather peaceful. What are you telling us? It's not to stop anymore? Why bother then in the first place? If it isn't to stop than everything is useless, because the world goes down whatever we do and try...
| punchdoll wrote: |
| 3: Last is Acceptance: They know the risks and what will happen, but they believe in their hearts/Minds that it is worth the cost as long as they succeed. |
O personally don't believe that this really exists...
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Queen
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Queen wrote: |
| I don't think it teaches us to hate. I think it makes us less tolerant to being trampled on by people who think, and in some cases know, that they can do pretty much whatever they want and get away with it. |
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| No, either the criminal thinks he won't be caught or he doesn't think about the possibility of getting caught at all... This is why they commit crimes in the end (as one reason). And how are we supposed to be less tolerant? We are punishing already and we don't encourage to commit crimes... |
Let's just say, overally there is a lot less crime where I live than in many other cities of the same size. Recently there has been an increase in activity, but statsistically, year round, not a whole lot of crime.
Anyways, we've gotten WAY off topic here.
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Valec
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, we have. But, still. Most of these things can't be helped because of the chain punchdoll mentioned. It's what I meant earlier, but I didn't explain in good enough detail. No matter what, we will get sad at times because of death, opininons of others contradicting you, or anything. After a while, this will spawn hatred and rage as the bottom line. I'm not saying peace wouldn't be nice, I'm saying it will never happen in this world. People are making wars for their own self gain as you can see in the war in the middle east. It will never be possible now because there is too much sadness that spawns the hatred. |
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