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Final Fantasy VII is overrated...
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Is Suikoden II better than Final Fantasy VII?
Yes
80%
 80%  [ 51 ]
No
19%
 19%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 63

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TheStrategist

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 4:38 pm    Post subject: Final Fantasy VII is overrated... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is so much love flowing around the RPG world for Final Fantasy VII. Yes, of course Cloud Strife and Sephirorth are unbelievably awesome and when ever i see them my eyes water with joy :) . But come to think of it, that was one of the only things I enjoyed about that game. If a storyline is being compared to Suikoden II, I think S2 would annhilate Final Fantasy VII. Mainly because in the story of FFVII, the plot can be so confusing when they discuss materia, sectors, lifestream, and the planet. This is part of a story is all so cliche compared to suikoden II. Almost 85 % (guess) of the Rpg games out there are fixed on saving the world from a creepy guy dressed in black. In Suikoden II, not only are the 108 stars of destiny preserving peace in the world, but the story is also about being loyal to something and doing what your heart tels you. Without getting all emotional, I think the reason fans love Suikoden is because they see themselves in one of the identities in the wide array of characters.
In the graphics aspect, FFVII doesn't have all so great graphics either, except for the cinema. I would rather prefer 2D than blocks as fists.
Another argument is playability. Yes, FFVII has the chocobo breeding, racing, impossible foes (emerald & omega); but SuikodeII has a cooking contests, private investigators, fishing, and sidequests. Another thing i would also like to bring up is that one suikoden game has more characters in one game than Final Fantasy has in all of their series. Is FFVII still a great game? Of course. But do i think it's better than Suikoden II? Sorry.

Feel free to argue my opinion......hehehe.....
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh please. It's personal opinion, there's no way to argue it intelligently, it all boils down to personal preference. The whole topic just makes me mad, too. I blame gamefaq's game battle. Lord. I'm sorry, nothing against you, but I just can't stand these kinds of discussions, especially when the idea of 7 being overrated comes up. The amounts of FF fanatics just barely outweigh the number of people who go around condemning FF fanatics. It just gets ridiculous.

Your argument wasn't at all typical of the kinds of views that just fill me with rage, though, don't get me wrong. Just the idea alone gets me going.
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Sun_Quan

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Truthfully, I am so sick of Final Fantasy VII it isn't funny. It is definitely the most over-rated RPG in the history of gaming. While I give it credit where credit is due for saving the RPG as we know it in the States, it's just worn out it's magic entirely with me.

I think the storyline of the Suikoden series has been nothing short of fantastic thus far, and Suikoden II is one that especially sticks out in my mind. Not only does it boast a much better villain (c'mon, Luca, a TRUE psycho who had his reasons for wanting to destroy the world vs. Sephiroth who's history is nothing but a haze that you can't make sense of even in the end?), but it has much more passion in it's soundtrack as well "War" (army battle theme) is a prime example of this, it's nothing short of brilliant! Not even "One Winged Angel" could compare to "War"!

And as for the minigames? Suikoden II also has the edge in my books, cooking contests, fishing, climb the cliff, etc. Even though FFVII's Golden Saucer was great for it's minigames there, I felt that Suikoden II's minigames were just more fun, especially the cooking contest, that made me feel like Emeril Lagasse every time i played them, even had me shouting out "BAM!" when I won **laughs**.

Anyway, I agree with you that Suikoden II is far and away better than FFVII, FFVII is not even that great anymore.
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like most RPGs, including FF7. FF7 had some extremely innovative ideas and was a breakthrough in many ways for RPGs. I liked how they delved deeply into the psychology of characters and the nature of psychological trauma. The story was very long with plenty of twists and turns. Aerith's death is probably one of the most shocking and memorable deaths in gaming history, and it would be difficult to best that particular scene. I recall playing that game in Japan just after it came out, and being totally shocked at that scene.

I think it is unfortunate that people bash FF7, because it is truly a spectacular game. I am the type of gamer who can go back and play FF1 or a text-based game such as Wizardry 1 and not complain--I just appreciate the RPG ambience. I do agree that FF7 seems to attract a vast number of people to this day, including some unsavory characters, but the same tendency can be seen with Suikoden fans to a smaller scale. Personally, I see it hard how a person who can enjoy Suikoden can not enjo Final Fantasy.
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Stampede

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've never been too fond of FFVII. The ability system has always bugged me, what with it turning your characters in to walking coat racks and all. And I never really cared about any of the characters. At best, I found them mildly amusing (Barret and Cid) while most I held in utter contempt (Aeris, Cloud, Tifa, ...most everyone else...). And when Sephiroth killed Aeris? Hell, I was so grateful to the guy, I never bothered to finish the game. I knew I was gonna have to kill him. I wasn't playing Fallout, I didn't have the choice to become an evil villain and help Sephiroth out of gratitude. So I never killed Sephiroth. He could wipe out the entire planet, and I'd still thank him for killing Aeris.
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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree that FF7 is over rated

HOWEVER, just that it has ignorant fanboys doesnt mean FF7 itself is NOT a good game. The game itself is a true classic, like Suikoden2.

*The followings are my personal opinion*
The storyline of FF7 is complicated, in fact, a little too complicated. But it does have its surprise and twist, and there are touching moment. (RedXIII and his father's scene comes to mind) It is a very interesting storyline though. I remembered back then we used write essay length message on GameFAQs argueing its plot. actually I like the story A LOT. Suikoden 2's story is simple, and while I appreciate the simplicity of it, it fails to impress me. It does have touching and funny moment, but the strength of that game actually comes from the characters (esp the returning ones). Suikoden 2's story does not stand well without Suikoden 1. The plot of best friend is your worst enemy feels very clique to me. (I have seen this plot used again and again in manga, TV shows, etc. just before I played S2 I played FF Tactics, whenever I see Jowy I think Delita)

BTW, more characters does not equal to better game. Sure, I like the variety, and in fact, I think the strength of the Suikoden series actually lies in the character department (they did a very great job of developing the characters), but just the number count of characters doesnt make a better game. (Wild Arms 3 has 4 characters and I like 3 of them, FFX has 6 characters and I could care less about any of them)

I could go on to the game system, music, graphics, replayability, etc. but my arms are seriously sore... >_<

You have to at least give it credits for being THE rpg game that brings so many people into the rpg genre.

I enjoy both FF7 and Suikoden2, I like Suikoden2 a little more than FF7, but that is my own personal opinion.

I am NOT going to vote in this topic.
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Stampede

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I will admit, it did bring a lot of people in to the RPG market. However, most of the people who were brought in are the type of people who say asinine stuff like claiming that FFVII is an "old-school" game or that Cloud is a gaming icon, while Mario has only been in two games, Mario Sunshine and Mario Kart: Double Dash!!. The end result is that the genre has been dumbed-down more and more as time goes on.
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Out of interest, do you think anyone here is going to say FF7 is better?
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Shiva




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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In my book the Suikoden series blows the entire FF series out of the water, but that's just my humble opinion. ^_^ While I understand your point, I will at least say that FF7 was by far much better than FF8. The great thing about FF7 was the character and plot development, which is practically nonexistent in FF8. Although, I have to say that Aeris' death didn't affect me much, at least not like the deaths of Odessa, Gremio, Nanami or even Lulu did. Also, I didn't really like her as a character, I think I may have liked her more if she had made it past the first disc and her personality developed more. But that's just me.
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Sun_Quan

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hardly, this is a Suikoden forum **laughs** but as I said in my last post, I did play and beat FF7, and I loved that game for it's time. But as I said, I am just sick of it is all. I've seen and played far better RPGs now, and the Final Fantasy series has had it's moments, for me they're FF2, 4, 6, 8, and 10. Screw 9 and X-2 because those games really, really suck ass in my books.

But so far Suikoden has not disappointed me yet. I hope that the trend continues.
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Icebergin




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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmmm... seems kinda unfair to be asking this on a Suikoden board...

Haha, Someone sounds bitter that FFVII beat Suikoden 2 in that stupid Gamefaqs battle thingy. Seriously, FFVII is one of the greatest games of it's time, and still one of the greatest games ever made.

I love Suikoden II, and it's my favorite game of all time (and the only RPG I've played through more than 3 times.) But, FFVII will always be better.

Why? It was marketed to the American audience to the fullest and raked in many of the RPG fans of today, myself included.

Quit being so bitter, jeez. I don't know how you can love Suikoden and hate FFVII, other than the fact that it's more sucessful, and will forever be more sucessful.

Now, I wish Suikoden would've been pushed down our throats instead and I could be playing a NSTC release of Suikogaiden... but that's the way it goes...

In conclusion (in case you're confused.)

Suikoden II > Final Fantasy VII in a matter of personal opinion.

Final Fantasy VII > Suikoden 2 in terms of being a breakthrough RPG

Thank you. :cry:
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Sun_Quan

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PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Now did I say I hated FF7? No, and I never will hate it. I loved it, I'm just sick of it is all. Seriously, it just has too many stupid fanboys/girls that consider it the greatest game of all time, and to me that is sad. I've seen and played better RPGs now. Every Final Fantasy has had it's moment, but overall I feel the series as a whole ahs been fairly inconsistant. Regardless, I will continue to play, and I look forward to Final Fantasy 12, if Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic on the X-Box and PC is any indication (it is almost Chrono Trigger in 3-D) than we should really be in for a treat!
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Sophita

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree that Final Fantasy 7 has become way overrated. I've gotten flamed from simply saying that even though I liked it, it wasn't my favorite FF (that would be the much maligned Final Fantasy IX) and that it had it's flaws. There are fanboys out there whose whole purpose is seemingly to go "OMG! FF7 ROX U SUCK BWAHAHAHAHA!"

But....

FF7 was (in America, at least - I can't speak for the rest of the world) a very historically important game. It proved that you could sell RPGs in America, which for the most part was not an accepted though before this. It ushered in new sales tactics (remember the trailers in theaters?) and put a new importance on having great graphics. It sold like hotcakes and made RPGs the next big thing in America. Without FF7, it's possible that Suikoden II and III wouldn't have ever been released here.

FF has always been a series with a story based on archetypes and cliches, but FF7 is not, I think, as cliched as many of them (especially the very early ones) are. The sci-fi element was fresh at the time, the magic system was completely new, the more adult story was new - it was groundbreaking in both the series and RPGs in general. It does rely on a cliche plot (evil madman tries to kill everyone; heroes want to save the world) and archtypical characters (the hero without a past, the freedom fighter, the pure heroine, the genki ninja, etc), but again, these were mostly new things to it's audience - few people in America had played RPGs before.

As far of the characters themselves, well, it depends - Do you prefer having a (literal!) army's worth of characters at your service, or would you prefer having 7 characters that have more skills? Suikoden is the game for people who love to customize - there are so many combinations of characters, runes, etc - with enough effort, any team can be outstanding. FFVII - and other FFs - are geared more towards those who don't particularly want that much customization - you have characters who are all skilled in one area (magic, fighting, stealing, etc.) and while you can train those characters and improve their skils, very rarely can you switch the characters' designated functions - the only two FFs I can think of that let you do this are FF8 and FF10 (which took a lot of effort and really wasn't worth doing, since an Auron mage wasn't as valuable as an Auron fighter). Character development wise, I'd say the characters are about equal. FF's characters are always archetypes and very few of them have complex personalities. In Suikoden, while many characters are one note archetypes, the most important characters are always complex characters.

I don't think it's fair to knock FF7 on it's graphics. 3d character models were, for better or worse, relatively new at the time (especially in RPGs) and while they look blocky and ancient now, at the time most people were absolutely dazed that it could be done at all. Yes, Suikoden II's 2d graphics looked "better" in my mind, too - but Suikoden II is younger than FFVII, and the technology behind 2d graphics had been around a lot longer than the technology for 3d ones had. Not really fair to compare them, as they're being driven by totally different things.

Replayability...I think Suikoden beats Final Fantasy VII hands down because there is so much more to do. You have over 108 characters to recruit (and very few get them all the first time through), and at least 70% of those characters are able to be used in battle. You can make any party you want, and you can experiment as much as you want. FFVII (and the rest of the FF series) just can't beat that with only 7-10 characters per game. Minigames-wise, I think it's a bit of a wash - it just depends what you like better. I will say that FF probably gives you better rewards for finishing their quests, but Suikoden has the better designed and ultimately more fun minigames. Or at least, I think so.

Overall, I would say that FFVII is an important game but one that is flawed. I would say that whether you prefer it over Suikoden II or not depends more on your personality and your likes/dislikes rather than anything the games have to offer. I personally prefer Suikoden over Final Fantasy, but if Suikoden had to lose to one game in the FF series, I wouldn't particularly mind it being FFVII, as I think it's one of the better titles to come out of that series, second in my mind to only FFIX. (Though yes, it makes me that in a certain competition that shall not be named, most people who voted probably had never even played Suikoden, and that it's inevitable in that competition that all the top titles with be Zelda's, Mario's, and FF's — how bland and unsurprising.) Now, if it had been FFVIII or FFX-2, then I would have been spitting mad, because those games are sucktastic and even some of the worst games available on the market are better than them. But FFVII? FFVII and Suikoden II are more or less equals; whether you prefer one or the other is largely a matter of taste, IMO.
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Last edited by Sophita on Mon May 31, 2004 12:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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Icebergin




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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bravo, Sophita.

Such a well-writen article...

No wonder you're the Queen of Falena
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Stampede

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Do you mean that the adult plot was new to Final Fantasy, or to US markets? Because the plot of FFVI was just about equally as adult (and in better ways... I could have done without a cross-dressing side-quest and Mukki, thank you), particularly in Japan.
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