Loyalty in the Suikoden world

[Eden]

I think Riou is a special case, because he grow up as a citicen of Highland, even if his Hometown thirty years ago was territory of Jowston. But it is more important, what one thinks as what really exists. There are you right. But it was always my personal impression, that foreigners are often wanderers who are searching for vengeance or mastering their skills or are some kind of pariah... But, like I said, I have only played two of the games until now and this was how I think loyalty was shown. But you're absolutely right with the Silverbergs.
_________________


The Fool

[Scrooge McDuck]

Hmm... So you basically meant that most of the Suikoden characters are wanderer that are not tied to their country anyway. You may have a point, but remember Kiba and Klaus Windaimer; they are high-ranking Highland officials, yet they defected to Dunan because they didn't support Luca's cause. Kiba even died for the Dunan Army.

In the first Suikoden (I know you haven't played it; I throw it in just for information), 4 of the Scarlet Moon Empire's 6 Great Generals defected to stop their corrupt empire.
_________________

[Eden]

Right, Kiba and Klaus changed their nationality, but this is because Luca killed his father who was the person Kiba and his son had sworn loyalty to, not neccessarly because I would reject Luca from the first. Kiba was with Luca when he burned down Ryube and he seemed more bored than disgusted to me. Mikotov and Camus are another example. I know Camus isn't born in Mathilda, but I don't know about Miklotov (to be true, I just don't want to look right now...) and he serves Gorudo, but even more their idea of Chivalrousness. After the Unifikation War neither of them moved back to Mathilda. So here's a point for you.
And you're likewise right about the four Great Generals. I have read about it since I am here ;)
_________________


The Fool

[John Layfield]

Remember that Kiba and Klaus held loyalty to Agares Blight over Luca because they knew that Luca's madness would be a detriment to Highland. It was only when Agares died by assassination, which Klaus deduced, and Luca became King that the two switched sides.

Also take into account that no move Camus and Miklotov made was to the detriment of Matilda. They violated their oath in order to help fight Highland which would have went for Matilda eventually. When Matilda was annexed as a puppet-state they fought as hard as anyone else to liberate it.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[Eden]

Do we know what exactly has Gorudo forced to give up his sovereignty? Camus and Miklotov changed sides with a third of the army Mathilda had. This weakened Gorudo's position. And the time both left Mathilda, it wasn't really in danger. Of course a smart man could have seen the line of events and that Mathilda may fall as last city state, but will fall in every case, but the danger wasn't urgent at this time, at least for Mathilda.
Of course one could argue, that the "occupation" of Mathilda was a mistake in the long run, because Highland had to part their army in order made Mathilda a save area, but this would be a far fetched assumption in my eyes.
_________________


The Fool

[John Layfield]

Gorudo entered into an alliance with Highland which saw the place annexed in return for Gorudo being installed as governor of the area. Basically, he sold the principality out in order to keep his position.

Gorudo knew Highland would attack eventually but was always unwilling to get into a direct confrontation with the nation. He refused to aid the Muse refugees, he refused to retake Muse after learning of the Highland sacrifices there, he quickly withdrew Matildan forces in the early part of the war even though he knew they were vital to the defense of Muse.

If Camus and Miklotov had stayed, nothing would have changed.

You have to remember not to confuse loyalty to a state with loyalty to a states institutions.
_________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, we shall all come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.

[AA]

Eden you seem to be comfusing loyatly to land and loyalty to a person. camus and Miklotov were Matilda knight, they needed to protect that domain, even if that meant going against their leader, that would be true loyalty.

Plus the matilda kights were members of the city state so it was Gurodo who was disloyal, not the knights.

[Eden]

But if you admit, that Gorudo did know that he will be attacked by Highland to matter what, then does this mean either did he thought he could win even after the defeat of the remaining Jowston alliance or he planned to make an alliance with Highland. What I am asking myself then is, if the loss of a third of his army wouldn't be unbearable for the rest of his army, or why didn't he make an alliance when he was still in a good position. Because the moment he did this, his position was weakened, but if he tried it early in the war maybe he could left his country without occupation at all. Of course it can be, that Luca was confident enough (or mad) that he assumed he wouldn't need an alliance, but the moment Joey took over the power in Highland would be a good moment. But then Gorudo probably thought, that the new king is just a boy. Argh, I hate arguing in English, because I contradict myself... ;)