The Suikoden fandom is full of rabid, pretentious whiners.

[Arcana]

I knew that title would get your attention.

I was going to consider presenting this in my nation board first, since I figured that, by posting this, the rest of the Suikoden community here would immediately flame me to a crisp. However, I thought about it and changed my mind, and thought that I'd reach a larger audience.

The topic that I'd like to present is as follows.

Be it resolved that the Suikoden fandom is full of rabid, pretentious, whiners.

Over the many years of being on the Internet and reading video game sites and stuff, I've seen many testimonies that the Suikoden fandom is full of wankers. It's been said that they are egalitarian, elitist, complain too much about nothing, blame blah blah etc whatever crap.

Have you heard this generalization of Suikoden fans? Do you agree with it? Do you think it's really just fans who love the series, or do you believe there's some justification in the idea that the fans love the series so much that they wank their way around in the fandom?

This is probably a bad place to post this. A lot of criticism, for example, is levelled specifically against the designer and maintainer of this site, SARSadmin. The Suikosource site gets a lot of flak, too. The rest of the gaming community looks from the outside-in, and sees near-hero worship of this community's big name fans, and they roll their eyes at this. They think it's totally retarded. They read the forums and feel that everyone's spinning their wheels with silly speculations, begging for answers from these big-name fans, when, in all likelyhood, Konami itself has no clue what this whole Pesmerga-Yuber war is about, or why Jeane never ages, or why Viki appears in every game. There's praise from within the community, but that's probably matched with equal vitrol from outside.

There's the blatant disregard for canon by so many authors, and who are flamboyant about it, too. There are the annoying fans who scream for Flik and Viktor, and people looking outside in believe, likely, that this ends up being the representative fan. The Suikoden fans are always demanding more -- look at the recent "King says Suikoden translation is good" thread for an example of what people in this community are pissed off about. They're mad about freaking misspellings in the games. Isn't that a bit much? I can understand some of the annoyance and anger about blatant misnamings and presentation of incorrect facts, but writing Cyndar as Sindar or whatever it is really isn't as much of a crime as people make it out to be.

So what do you think? Do you think that people outside of the community here look inside and think that we're all whiners? Do you think that the Suikoden community is pretentious, or do you believe this view is unjustified? Do you feel that everyone in the community is a whiner, after being on the inside? Maybe it's a few bad apples inside ethat make it all bad. Maybe it's a few bad apples on the outside who propagate this misinformation.

Changes are, most of you are going to say, "Who the fck cares about them", but is that an attitude that should be taken? Is it okay to be viewed as a fanbase that is pretentious, that is full of whiners, that is extremely rabid?

[Note: I am in no way levelling direct criticism against the creators of this site, or against the creators and maintainers of Suikosource, or of any fans in specific here.

This is a controversial topic, and it's bound to set off some sparks, but I feel that this community contains enough mature people capable of intelligent discussion that this debate can be brought up without it being reduced into a flamefest or something.]
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Woo, 2000 posts as of Tuesday, 2007 August 28.

[Hawk Thanatos]

First I've heard of suikoden fans being hated, although I would agree with many fans being rabid, pretentious whiners. Of course, wanting a decent translation that coincides with the previous entries in the suikoden series is hardly a huge ask, Final Fantasy has been getting it since the playstation. I'd agree that some fans can be pretentious when it comes to characters like Pesmerga and Yuber but not about the suikoden series in general. And there's less deserving series to be rabid about, Mario and Zelda for example.

I completely agree that fans tend to whine a bit too much about translations like Sialeeds and Lyon though. [Note: I am in every way levelling criticism agaist some fans here]

But who the f*ck cares about those outsiders, if they're hating on the suikoden series chances are they worship some other series. And yes this is an attitude that should be taken.

As for the hero-worship of Sars, I think people here respect him for his suiko knowledge and admin skills but no one worships him, I hope.


Now I'm off to pray to Sars that these non believers see the light.

[fc_conn]

Well, shoot. For the most part, I'd agree... I'd have to say that:

a) I don't worship Sars, but he does know a dang lot, and is quite helpful. I do have much respect for him and his work. He does own this site, after all.

b) YES - Worrying relentlessly over translations is silly. Like I said in the Sui V board, it could be so much worse (go look at English screenshots of Legend of Heroes IV on the PSP.) Like you said, we get the story, we can even understand nearly every obscure reference the game throws at us.

Agreed on the Flame Champion thing. I believe by calling him the "Flame Champion" they were just embellishing a bit to make it more elegant than "Fire Hero." Yes, I know Fire Hero is correct, but they are soooo close, it's a moot point. Cyndar/Sindar is also very minor. When the games go through the many hands and different crews of translators over the years, there are bound to be inconsistencies.

And at least we CAN play them. How many of you could go pick up the Japanese editions and understand a word? Probably about 3 of you. ;) So, were it not for these "shoddy translations," you would probably not even know what Suikoden was.

I've never played a Suikoden game and not understood what was going on, let alone be drawn out due to some text errors. If people want to whine, that's their right. But personally, I think it's really quite silly. If you don't like the way Konami does things, don't buy the games. And please don't go mouthing off to King about it - he has freaking NOTHING to do with it. I'm very, VERY embarassed and dissapointed that people would do that. You should be complaining to Konami of America, and preferably in a civil manner, not to the Japanese art director.

But...to each his own, I suppose. Just don't ruin the experience for the rest of us.

*bring on the flames...*

[Vextor]

I've heard of people complaining about whining suikoden fans, but I guess I pretty much ignore them. Generalizations tend to be incorrect, anyways. If what people say about me are correct, I'd be shooting lightning from my rear end (Braveheart reference).

The whole translation issue is mainly caused by myself and a number of other fans who take these things seriously (such as Howling Guild, who has edited the English version of the Suikoden 3 Manga). This probably has to do with the fact that I have been a professional translator for many years, and at the same time worked as a quality assurance dude; I see it not only as a right, but the duty of the consumer to voice their opinions on product quality and consistency. I believe that good things have come from this-- the Suikoden 3 manga being a gleaming example of a fan's perseverence, and translation quality has improved in Suikoden 3 and 4. I imagine it will be far better in 5 (it's hard to have gramatically incorrect dialogue when you have voice acting, anyways). This generally has more to do with my being raised in two cultures (and that's the same case with Howling Guild as well).

One thing I do try to enforce at this site though is diversity, and by that I mean diversity of opinion. People have always made and issue with me being too extreme about translation errors, etc. What I'm saying is, this isn't the first time I've heard this argument, and basically all I have to say to that is, "glad you have an opinion, but I will do what I think is right." People can have opinions, but I roll my eyes when it comes down to, "you should think the same way I think, because I am right!."

The whole yaoi segment of the fandom is a separate issue; it's pretty much discouraged here at suikox, and I believe the same is generally true at suikosource as well. However, it sure is a unique aspect of the suikoden fandom. It's far worse in Japan though--it is difficult to find a suikoden fansite in Japan that doesn't have some form of yaoi content.

[Anton Misri]

This is a very interesting topic.

The fan community of suikoden is very different. I have taken some data (from various "what is your real age?" threads at fansites), and suikox have higher median age when I compare this with major fan-managed sites for other games. There probably are various discrepancies that come from age-dependent expectations because life-experiences and perspective is very different from a mid-teenager male (median demographics for fans of final fantasy), males professionals in their early 20s (median demographcs of suikoden fans in USA).

One more factor is Suikoden have many female fans; this is a huge anomaly when we compare to other RPG titles, which are dominated by males. Suikoden appeals to females for an unknown reason (my hypothesis is that Suikoden represents a number of character archetypes ideal for females).

The existence of many female fans creates different social dynamics. Male fans have a tendency for behaving better when they realise there are female fans who post in the same forum. This can possibly cause behavior that is "intellectual" or "lofty." Forums dominated by males tend to have greater incidents of showing aggressive behavior or descriptions of mock-violence. You do not see this very often in a suikoden fandom. This may also affect insecurities that people have when they perceive suikoden fans being overly academic and sophisticated (percieved elitism), but this is probably misplaced due to the fact that suikoden communities have been very accepting of new members if they are able to follow some ground rules (rules are often not enforced very well in sites of other games, and in "general game sites" like rpgfan, where moderators are inconsistent and often need moderation themselves!).

These are my current observations.
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[John Layfield]

I have returned from my illness related absence of around four hours just to respond to this thread. Be proud!

[Maximillian]

I'm tired of hearing people whining about whiners (which means I'm whining about whiners who whine about whiners). But I wouldn't call what Sars and other say "whining," (and you're not fooling anybody with that "I'm not talking about anyone in particular..." skunkwarble) that's a pretty pretentious accusaion considering how much he's done for all suikoden fans.

I mean, get real. You walk into a bar filled with bikers, and you proclaim, "this isn't directed at any one of you, but I think all bikers are rabid, pretentious whiners." :roll:
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[AA]

i dont mind answering questions for newer fans of the series, hopfully they will pass on the infomation to the next newbie and so forth, or is that fine since there asking me and not Sars, or does that somehow mean that they are hero worshipping me for knowing the answers to there, usually simply answered questions.

personnaly i dont worship sars, but i do have lots of respect for his knowledge of suikoden and if it wasnt for him i wouldnt know anything about most characters, since i canot read japanese, no im not saying he is the only person in the world who can translate, but he is one of the only ones who has put the infomation obtained into english and wacked it up onto a web site.

pretencious? hmm ive hardly met any of those people here on the suikox forum, but there were a couple over at suikosource i must admit thats part of the reason i dont frequent that particular forum anymore.

personnally for me living in a PAL region, i'll take any sencical translation i can get my hands on, yes suikoden 2 had translation errors, but they didnt affect the gameplay and i understood the story perfectly well.

people weining about things isnt a new thing and certainly not just 'suikoden-centric' (i like it john, keep up the good work) so just get over it, who cares what people looking -in think, i know i dont.

[Agahnim]

I don't know why you would single out Suikoden fans for this, beyond the fact that you seem to like to try and up the ire of certain people.

Every so called fandom of video games I can think of has these 'rabid and pretentious whiners' that you're referring to, complaining about one thing or another. I've found Suikoden fans to be quite fair and relatively easy to persevere (for the most part) in comparison to a great number of other fandoms. There are always elitists of some extreme, but on different levels, who complain about everything and nothing at the same time.

There are far worse people on the internet. It isn't just limited to a single fandom for a single series of video games, it can be related to just about anything you can find on the internet that has a fan base; who will complain and whine to a 'rabid' extent about every small detail and inconsistency they can find. The most poignant and relative to my mind, is the pro wrestling fan base. But there are so many more. Theres nothing special about the Suikoden fandom and their small worries about receiving misinformation due to spelling mishaps and translation errors.
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"The strong manly ones in life are those who understand the meaning of the word patience."

[Parallax]

I was under the impression that most fanbases had a good deal of rabid, pretentious, whiners. The first thing that popped into my head after reading Arcana's original post were Final Fantasy fans, particularly fans of Final Fantasy VII. You might have some idea of the looks that I get when I proclaim that I don't especially care for Final Fantasy VII, that I prefer VIII. I consider Final Fantasy as a whole to be a rather mediocre series of RPGs, with a few gleaming gems that I like very much.

Maybe that's why I hang out on a Suikoden forum. The point, however, is that the Final Fantasy fans would like to devour my soul as a result of this. I have a friend, diehard Final Fantasy VII fan, who used to own a (small) board that had a large section dedicated to discussion about the Final Fantasy VII "spinoffs". The type of discussion that occured about Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, and so on, was the same kind of thing you might see here.

Singling out Suikoden in this respect, I think, is a mistake, and gives other parts of the gaming community too much credit. There are unquestionably people who would crucify me because I don't like Counterstrike just as sure as people who don't like Suikoden are going to get pounced on here. Most of the people here would be more civil about it, too.

I agree with Anton Misri when he says that, given that there are seemingly a relative multitude of female Suikoden fans, that affects the behaviour of the fan community. Male fans do tend to act differently around female fans, despite the fact that we're on the internet here. I think it's much less likely that you'll get flamed to a crisp here than on certain other forums. That's also, of course, due to the moderation team here which is of good quality.

[Elzamine]

I find it really depends where you go.
I haven't seen any whining done about suikoden than I haven't seen done about other subjects. So I suppose I disagree with the concept of the topic as a whole yes.. or moreso as a generality. I'm not saying I haven't seen people whine about things that I, myself, don't think is that big of a deal. It happens, but that said, it happens now and then.. and even still, it doesn't matter what topic or series or anything you bring up, I'm sure there will be someone or a collective of people who feel the need to complain. I don't think however, that any sort of generalization needs to be made about it though.
I've never even heard any general complaints about suikoden fans as a whole to tell you the truth. The topic is the first awareness of it for me.

There may be more complaints about names, translations or follow up games, but then again I think that has to do with the way of the series. I'll use Final Fantasy to counter compare. Each FF may have a few similarities, but the series itself is not a continuation. That in itself leaves less for people to complain about, it also makes things arguably easier. If a Final Fantasy bombs.. okay, they realize that, and can scrap it completely and move on. Where Suikoden is a series that ties together, returning elements, characters, plot.. if there's a bomb somewhere, it's harder to turn that sort of thing around, since they can't just wipe the slate for the next game and start over. I just think that concept in itself can make a difference between what sort of complaints could come up and such.

Even still, while I can rationalize that concept all I want, it's more debate than whine. Like I said before though, I really can't say I find suikoden fans are whiney compared to any other fans. I will agree that some people, regardless of what they are a fan of, can just get too picky or whine too much about things though. This is less of a generalization and more of a specific. Then of course, this is all much more opinionated than fact :D
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-My DeviantArt-

[Admiral Ackbar]

Most of what I want to say has already been said, but I'll add in a bit about the Suikoden yaoi fandom, since I'm a part of it (I even run a Suikoden yaoi LJ community). Yaoi fans, for the most part, understand that the characters they "make gay" are not normally like that in their fandom. To be honest, the only reason yaoi recieves so much criticism is because the characters are gay males. No one seems to ever complain about hentai or yuri content, no matter how OOC it gets. Plenty of people are willing to complain about how out of character it is for Seed and Culgan or Camus and Miklotov to have a relationship, but no one complains about Chris yuri or Jeane hentai. Its passive homophobia. The day everyone that criticises Suikoden yaoi also criticises Suikoden hentai and yuri, I'll listen to them. Otherwise they're just idiots not worth my time. I'm tired of getting flak from people that look at yaoi and just see annoying fangirls "making straight characters gay" in an attempt to excite themselves. If you don't understand yaoi, just ignore it. Its not being forced on you. Its also not being thought of as canon (though, some characters in the series are clearly of questionable sexuality).
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[fc_conn]

Sars, I understand your point. I realize that you and your background would lead you to be more concerned about translation issues. I didn't mean to make it sound like the translation is not important; of course it is. And I would love to see higher quality translations in the future. But, like you said, Suikoden 3 and 4 have been getting progressively better translations. I think Rhapsodia was technically sound, save perhaps one line that Kyril said.

Anyway, my main point was that I'm just dissapointed that people would post on King's board about the English translations. How professional does that seem? To me, it looks incredibly immature. But I could just be full of crap.

I read the other's comments and I see good points in all of them. It's nice to be able to have some discussion without people becoming all riled up over something like this.

[Username]

Well I think the only real problem that I don't see in any other fan base are the people who take what Sars says as complete and utter fact. Sars knows a lot but he doesn't know what the directors behind Suikoden thinks.

When people got mad about the characters names being Lyon...ect makes me mad! Sars is a fan translator. He can only read what he thinks it should be not see into the future of how it'll actually be translated. The other point is when people take what Sars theorizes as fact and bashes others who don't know what Sars said (doesn't happen often thank goodness). He has been know to guess right before, but so can anyone else who have played the games enough.

On the actual translation errors. Suikoden II for the US is a horrible translation! Nothing can change that! But seeing as Suikoden did not get a lot of hype I can see why the translation was bad for the second installment. The fact that the sales have increased in the US means their will be more attention paid to translations. Maybe in SV we will see a Godspeed Rune and a Greater Godspeed Rune (But I still like the True Holy Rune! It has history!)
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[Arcana]

I've seen a lot of "well all fandom is like this". But is it? The reason I've singled out Suikoden as a potential target for being filled with (and filled with, meaning that there is a perception that is radiated from the community that makes the fandom seem more critical than it really is) pretentious whiners is because a lot of people I know, who play Suikoden, who enjoy the games, specifically STAY AWAY from Suikoden fandom because of the nature of it.

I don't necessarily agree with the fact that Suikoden fandom, because it has a higher number of females, is more intellectual or mature. There are plenty of female fans in many RPG series and anime series. I've participated in groups that were almost predominantly female, but haven't noticed a correlation between the intellect/loftiness/egalitarianism and the number of females participating. While the age may be true, one must recall also that SuikoX is not necessarily the entire community (although it may as well be so). Not long ago, there were a handful of good Suikoden sites and decent forums, but that number's consolidated dramatically, and now there are three forums that I know, off-hand, that run --- SuikoX and Suikosource make up two of that three.