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Why Rina is so good... according to SARS
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Marshmallow

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

When a character is level 39, take them to L'Renouille, fight a group of 6 highland soldiers, kill off all other party members, and use the Lv 39 guy to win the battle, and he should go up to 99.
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It has to be a group of 5 highland soldiers and a squad leader. If you get 3 highland soldiers with sword/spears and 3 with crossbows instead, they will only take you to level 89 or so.
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

thanks foir the answers. but bringing a lvl 39 in L'Renouille is a bit hard to survive isn't it
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Not if everyone else is level 60 or so.

And if you give a Fortune Rune to the character you want to level, I believe you can get them up into the 40s and still get them to level 99 with that trick.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If everyone is level 60, then you're an idiot for trying to level them further....You don't need anyone that high to beat the game, because that happens naturally.

My party in the end was always 62 with everyone, save Luc, who was 61. Always. And I never figured out why.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No, nothing will happen even if you bring Rina back in again. By the time you aquire Rina once more, the guards guarding North Sparrow pass will no longer be state soldiers, but are instead highland soldiers. And well, being different soldiers, i doubt they'll have the same effect. Besides, i'm sure Luca Blight is much more intimidating than Annabelle is, and they would't dare to risk it.

And well, after the highlands are gone, you CAN go through the north sparrow pass so...

And party level... Mine sometimes don't even reach 60... In fact, usually they don't...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How do you do the kindness rune trick, this is the first I have heard of it?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Kindness rune raises the person's attack by 1 point the longer they're in the party (I think it's 30 minutes, I'm not sure.) However, if that person ever dies their extra attack power that they've earned from the Kindness rune will drop 1 point.

However, there is a glitch with this rune. How do you abuse it? What you do, is get someone you hardly use and just let them die in battle (If you use them allot you will just have to kill them more.) Then, if they have the Kindness rune on, their attack will "drop" backwards to 999.

The downside to this is that if that person is in the party long enough, and the Kindness rune kicks in, their attack will go back to normal. Although all you have to do is kill them again, but it's still a hassle.

If your at the end of the game, and having problems killing your guys in random encounters, I've found that an easy way is to use Sylph runes(won from killing Pink Birds outside Matilda). They take away your HP and give it to your party members. But if the person useing it has low HP, it will kill them.

EDIT: I forgot to add some things...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Cheers excalibur, I'll remember that for next time.

Too bad Rina's been in my party for ages already :(.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

While I agree that Rina's ability to deal high damage is wonderful, I don't really consider it as "so good"because there are some points that made it not so great.

1. First thing's first. Rina cannot deal 2000 damage everytime you use the Kite Rune. Kindness Rune would allow the ATK to reach 999 (round it to 1000). Half of it due to Kite Rune is 500. Then Fury + Double Strike means that 500x1.5x1.5 = 500x2.25 = 1125. Not really as impressive as 2000 damage due to 875 damage difference.

2. The Kindness Rune trick. Yes it's a mighty trick, but it would be very rare for someone to "coincidentally" finish a whole sidequest within 30 minutes (and must be between the 0 and 30th minute on the game clock as well) so that the trick still works. If you've reached the 0 and 30th minute in the middle of any dungeon, it would be a very annoying problem to solve because you have to get her killed and then either waste a level 4 spell or go back to an inn to revive her. Because once the Kindess Rune trick wears off, she would be dealing low damage due to the half damage of Kite Rune. Not to mention that the process to get her KO'ed might take some time as well. So in a sense, it really takes a troublesome effort to make her able to deal that 500-1000s damage consistently.

3. The boss fight factor. Your post there mentioned about Rina could kill a group of 5 squirrels in one round consistently while Sheena/Killey couldn't. But with a party of 6 characters, do we really need one character to kill all 5 squirrels? The answer is no, we don't. What we need is to be able to kill them in one turn, may it be by one character or by all 6 characters. What more important is the ability to deal high damage when we need to deal high damage, which is against the bosses. And most of the times, bosses came up in either ones or twos (I don't count the soldiers that sometimes accompanied them because they could be taken care of with a single spell of Fire Rune or something). So it is still more useful to be able to deal high damage to a single enemy rather than dealing half of high damage to all. Not to mention that boss fights mostly happened at the end of the sidequest, so it's related to problem #2 as well with the timing issue.

4. In a reply of yours, you mentioned that by having only Kite Rune and Kindness Rune, she could deal 4-500 damage. It's true, but it also means that Eilie (or the archers with Great Hawk Rune) could do the same.

5. Even if we assume that she would be dealing 1125 damage on every turn she gets, Killey would still be more useful IMO because Rina would be dealing static damage (which is around 1125) while Killey (with Fury+D.Strike+D.Beat) could deal 900 damage at least twice per turn with the possibility of the extra attacks. That number could jump to even higher if we use the Kindness Rune Trick on him.

But don't get me wrong, I still consider Rina to be a useful character. It's just that it's not for the Kite Rune reason.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bugg wrote:

1. First thing's first. Rina cannot deal 2000 damage everytime you use the Kite Rune. Kindness Rune would allow the ATK to reach 999 (round it to 1000). Half of it due to Kite Rune is 500. Then Fury + Double Strike means that 500x1.5x1.5 = 500x2.25 = 1125. Not really as impressive as 2000 damage due to 875 damage difference.


Your calculation is incorrect due to your mistake that the Double Strike rune only increases damage by x1.5. It actually increases damage by x2.0. This would be pretty clear if you actuall try this yourself. I do admit though, she'd never get 2000. It'd be more like 1500. However, it won't be 1125.


Quote:

2. The Kindness Rune trick. Yes it's a mighty trick, but it would be very rare for someone to "coincidentally" finish a whole sidequest within 30 minutes (and must be between the 0 and 30th minute on the game clock as well) so that the trick still works. If you've reached the 0 and 30th minute in the middle of any dungeon, it would be a very annoying problem to solve because you have to get her killed and then either waste a level 4 spell or go back to an inn to revive her. Because once the Kindess Rune trick wears off, she would be dealing low damage due to the half damage of Kite Rune. Not to mention that the process to get her KO'ed might take some time as well. So in a sense, it really takes a troublesome effort to make her able to deal that 500-1000s damage consistently.


I have no problem having her get killed, because she has very low DEF, and her HP isn't that great. Enemys tend to have an easy time killing her.

Quote:

3. The boss fight factor. Your post there mentioned about Rina could kill a group of 5 squirrels in one round consistently while Sheena/Killey couldn't. But with a party of 6 characters, do we really need one character to kill all 5 squirrels? The answer is no, we don't. What we need is to be able to kill them in one turn, may it be by one character or by all 6 characters. What more important is the ability to deal high damage when we need to deal high damage, which is against the bosses. And most of the times, bosses came up in either ones or twos (I don't count the soldiers that sometimes accompanied them because they could be taken care of with a single spell of Fire Rune or something). So it is still more useful to be able to deal high damage to a single enemy rather than dealing half of high damage to all. Not to mention that boss fights mostly happened at the end of the sidequest, so it's related to problem #2 as well with the timing issue.


That is true, however, if the purpose is to fight against a boss, Rina can still deal phenomenal damage using a single attack with the aid of a fury, double strike, and kindness runes. Such an attack would do around 2900 damage normally, and a critical attack would do around 8500 damage. That's enough to kill most any boss in Suikoden 2. I mean, she doesn't HAVE to use the kite rune every round--she can just choose to attack normally. In fact, with the above set-up, she would be able to do huge damage to all enemies OR do huge damage to single enemies. Rina is the only character who can do this--no other character can.

Quote:

4. In a reply of yours, you mentioned that by having only Kite Rune and Kindness Rune, she could deal 4-500 damage. It's true, but it also means that Eilie (or the archers with Great Hawk Rune) could do the same.

Yeah, but she's the only one who can also have a Fury and Double Strike rune on herself--all of those runes can be acquired early in the game.

Quote:

5. Even if we assume that she would be dealing 1125 damage on every turn she gets, Killey would still be more useful IMO because Rina would be dealing static damage (which is around 1125) while Killey (with Fury+D.Strike+D.Beat) could deal 900 damage at least twice per turn with the possibility of the extra attacks. That number could jump to even higher if we use the Kindness Rune Trick on him.


Again your "1125" number is miscalculated, but you have also forgotten that Rina can attack normally, and do around 2900 damage to a single enemy with the potential of multiple attacks and criticals. Although Killey would be able to do the greatest damage of all characters (with the sole execption of Bob) if he had Double Strike, Violence, Warrior, and Exertion Runes as displayed by kfcrispty and Kornholio of Suikosource, the amount of damage Rina would be able to do is adequate to be considered "formidable." No spell would be able to do as damage as her single attack, and her "group" attack using the Kite rune would do a consistent 1400-1500 damage to all enemies. That's more than enough.

You'd really have to actually try these with the actual games to make sure your calculations are correct. Good try tho.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Your calculation is incorrect due to your mistake that the Double Strike rune only increases damage by x1.5. It actually increases damage by x2.0.

Ah, my bad then. I only used the description from the game where it said x1.5 instead of x2.0.

Quote:
I have no problem having her get killed, because she has very low DEF, and her HP isn't that great. Enemys tend to have an easy time killing her.

Though it's not that hard to get her killed, it would still a hassle because you can't control the enemies to attack her exclusively. It still takes time to get her killed.

And the point remains that you have to revive her to make the Kindness Rune trick works again. So you'd have to waste time (if you choose to go back to an inn to rest) or you'd have to waste a level 4 rune spell (if you choose to revive her right there and then). It's still not efficient to keep the trick works all the time.

Quote:
That is true, however, if the purpose is to fight against a boss, Rina can still deal phenomenal damage using a single attack with the aid of a fury, double strike, and kindness runes. Such an attack would do around 2900 damage normally, and a critical attack would do around 8500 damage. That's enough to kill most any boss in Suikoden 2. I mean, she doesn't HAVE to use the kite rune every round--she can just choose to attack normally. In fact, with the above set-up, she would be able to do huge damage to all enemies OR do huge damage to single enemies. Rina is the only character who can do this--no other character can.

True, but again, it's not crucial at all for her (or any character) to be able to deal 1500 damage to all enemies when it comes to normal enemies. By putting the Kite Rune, you used a rune slot that could be used to make her able to deal more damage or attack twice or go faster or whatever on normal attack.

Quote:
the amount of damage Rina would be able to do is adequate to be considered "formidable." No spell would be able to do as damage as her single attack, and her "group" attack using the Kite rune would do a consistent 1400-1500 damage to all enemies. That's more than enough.

You mentioned it yourself. That's more than enough. It's also a reason why I think Rina's ability to deal that kind of damage isn't really that great. Because we don't really need it that much. With the same setup (minus Fury), Ayda could deal 1000 damage with Kite Rune and 2000 damage with normal attack. Sure that isn't as high as Rina's 1500 damage to all and 3000 damage on normal attack, but isn't that enough? It is. And if it's in boss fight and you use Battle Oath to berserk her, she would be dealing the same amount of damage as Rina.

And if you think about it, probably the worst problem is simply because Rina's damage (with that setup) would totally depend on Kindness Rune Trick. So that means you'd have to get her killed every 30 minutes to allow you to have her in your party all the time and also maintaining that high damage. It's very not fun to do that every 30 minutes.

On the other hand, characters like Killey (or even Rina if she doesn't use Kite Rune) wouldn't need to rely on Kindness Rune and you could play the game freely without having to worry what game time it was. Not to mention that most people would prefer to use the Auto command for the normal battles instead of individual orders for all 6 characters.

Probably I'd do a simple comparison of pro and cons for Rina with that setup vs Killey with my setup (Fury, D.Strike, D.Beat, Exertion)

Rina's pros:
1. Able to deal 1500 damage to all (not really needed at all)
2. Able to deal 3000 damage to 1 (useful indeed)

Rina's cons:
1. Only 1 guaranteed attempt/turn if using normal attack (if you missed, you might not get second attempt)
2. Need to keep the Kindness Rune Trick to work (worry about game time, waste time or spell)
3. Low DEF and HP, vulnarable to get killed, especially in boss battles (if she's KO'ed, then she can't do any damage at all)

Killey's pros:
1. Two guaranteed attempts/turn if using normal attack (you got second chance if you missed)
2. If more than 1 round, the damage increases up to the fifth round (useful against bosses)
3. No need to bother with game time (enjoy the game)
4. Not too vulnarable to get killed due to decent HP and DEF (that way he could deal damage)

Killey's cons:
1. Not able to deal damage to all (that's why we have 6 characters in the party)

Probably that's a biased comparison, but I think it's fair to say that it would take more effort to use Rina with that setup than Killey with my setup. And even after that effort, I don't think that it's necessary at all to get the pros of Rina. Making her ability do deal huge damage to both all and single enemies not worth the effort that we have to put in.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:

And the point remains that you have to revive her to make the Kindness Rune trick works again. So you'd have to waste time (if you choose to go back to an inn to rest) or you'd have to waste a level 4 rune spell (if you choose to revive her right there and then). It's still not efficient to keep the trick works all the time.

In Suikoden, a character who gets knocked out during battle will have 1 hp after battle, so you won't have to go back to the inn to "revive" her or waste a level 4 rune spell. It's not that time consuming, at least for me--and worth the effort.

Quote:
True, but again, it's not crucial at all for her (or any character) to be able to deal 1500 damage to all enemies when it comes to normal enemies. By putting the Kite Rune, you used a rune slot that could be used to make her able to deal more damage or attack twice or go faster or whatever on normal attack.

Actually, considering the fact that the upper-end enemies such as minotaurs, manticores, bronzens and the like have more than 1000 HP, the 1500 damage or so would be a good thing to have. As for how she can use another rune instead of a Kite rune--once Rina has a Fury and Double Strike runes, there isn't much else she can have to increase her power, or there is little need because she would already be pretty powerful. Even if her kindness rune is replaced with an exertion rune, she would be able to deal around 1500 damage to a single enemy. She's pretty fast as is, and has no need to have a Gale rune to increase her speed. A Double Beat Rune would be useful, but a Kite Rune is better because it hits 100% of the time.

Quote:

And if you think about it, probably the worst problem is simply because Rina's damage (with that setup) would totally depend on Kindness Rune Trick. So that means you'd have to get her killed every 30 minutes to allow you to have her in your party all the time and also maintaining that high damage. It's very not fun to do that every 30 minutes.

This isn't that big of a problem for me, but if this bothers people, the kindness rune can be replaced with an exertion rune for a similar (but less potent) effect. Even with that, Rina should be able to kill most anything with one attack.



Quote:
On the other hand, characters like Killey (or even Rina if she doesn't use Kite Rune) wouldn't need to rely on Kindness Rune and you could play the game freely without having to worry what game time it was. Not to mention that most people would prefer to use the Auto command for the normal battles instead of individual orders for all 6 characters.

The same set-up for Killey can be applied to Rina for similar effects, while Rina's "Kite rune set-up" can not be applied to Killey, which is why Rina has the edge.



Quote:
Probably I'd do a simple comparison of pro and cons for Rina with that setup vs Killey with my setup (Fury, D.Strike, D.Beat, Exertion)

Rina's pros:
1. Able to deal 1500 damage to all (not really needed at all)
2. Able to deal 3000 damage to 1 (useful indeed)

Rina's cons:
1. Only 1 guaranteed attempt/turn if using normal attack (if you missed, you might not get second attempt)
2. Need to keep the Kindness Rune Trick to work (worry about game time, waste time or spell)
3. Low DEF and HP, vulnarable to get killed, especially in boss battles (if she's KO'ed, then she can't do any damage at all)

More pros for Rina--
3) All 3 rune slots abaibale at level 35 (which can be reached during the first Matilda mission)
4) High MDEF (Most boss attacks will be less effective on her)
5) Recruited early in the game (thus she would be useful more often)
6) L-Range fighter (can't be counter-attacked and won't be a target of physical attacks.

Also, your cons are flawed--
2. It doesn't waste as much time as you say, and you don't have to waste spells at all.
3. Low DEF can be compensated if you give her armor, and her MDEF is among the highest (most bosses use MAG-based attacks). Also, if she is placed in the back-row, physical attacks won't reach her.

Quote:

Killey's pros:
1. Two guaranteed attempts/turn if using normal attack (you got second chance if you missed)
2. If more than 1 round, the damage increases up to the fifth round (useful against bosses)
3. No need to bother with game time (enjoy the game)
4. Not too vulnarable to get killed due to decent HP and DEF (that way he could deal damage)

Your pros with Killey are flawed as well--
1. Rina can also use the Double Beat Rune, if she wishes.
2. Not really a con because Rina can also use the Exertion Rune, and the Exertion rune only increases damage by 16% every round and tops off at x2.0 at round 6. Most bosses can be killed by then, so it would take too much time.
3. This is due to your misunderstanding of Suikoden's HP=0 status.
4. Killey's MDEF is inferior to Rina' so he'd actually be more vulnerable to most boss attacks. Killey's HP is only slightly better than Rina's as well.


Quote:
Killey's cons:
1. Not able to deal damage to all (that's why we have 6 characters in the party)

Again, your [/quote]
You're missing a few cons as well.
2. 3rd runeslot unavailable until level 55 (not until before the attack on L'Renouille, so you can't have much use of him until the end of the game)
3. Recruitable only after the alliance with Toran (meaning he won't have much time for players to tamper with)
4. MDEF is not as high as Rina (vulnerable to bosses--most bosses after the Toran alliace use magic attacks)
5. Can not use the Kite Rune (he is less versatile).
6. Mid-range fighter, meaning he can be counterattacked.


Quote:

Probably that's a biased comparison, but I think it's fair to say that it would take more effort to use Rina with that setup than Killey with my setup. And even after that effort, I don't think that it's necessary at all to get the pros of Rina. Making her ability do deal huge damage to both all and single enemies not worth the effort that we have to put in.

It doesn't take as much effort as you seem to believe, and whether the effort is worth it or not is a matter of personal taste. I think it is definitely worth the effort, especially because all of Rina's rune slots become available at a relatively low level of 35.

In fact, you can use your Killey setup on Rina and she'd still be useful. However, Killey can never have the Kite rune setup (and can't even use the Double-Beat, Fury, Double Strike setup until level 55!!) This means Rina is more versatile--and thus, as versatility goes, Rina tops them all.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First of all, my bad for the reviving thing. I completely forgot about it.

As for the pros and cons of the comparison, they were strictly for the two setups and not for the two characters. So I purposely left out the unrelated things. If you put all those factors into the pros and cons (such as early recruitement and so on), Riou is probably the best character because you recruit him at the very beginning of the game, has an exclusive Bright Shield Rune (with the very useful Battle Oath Spell), has a unite with Tir McDohl that would attack all enemies, all stats (except MAG and MDEF) are better than Rina, etc etc. But that's not what I'm trying to do here. My post was purely to argue the usefulness of the Kite Rune setup on Rina and not wether Rina is a useful character or not (I've already said it that I consider Rina to be a useful character, but not for the Kite Rune setup). The topic title is "Why Rina is so good ... according to SARS" and inside the topic, the reason was the Kite Rune setup and not the other factors such as the early recruitement, high MDEF, etc. So it should be clear that I'm arguing the Kite Rune setup only. I hope you wouldn't misunderstand my point here.

Your point about the minotaurs and other high HP monsters would only be in effect for the very end part of the game (probably around the last 3-5% of the game). So it is clear that it doesn't matter *that* much at all. And even so, as mentioned before, the party consist of 6 characters and they should be enough to kill those monsters in one turn (or at the least kill half of them in one turn to minimize any possible damage taken). So while Rina might be the only one that could kill them all in one hit, it might not be the necessary to do so.

Then you also mentioned that we could replace the Kindness Rune with Exertion Rune to achieve similar effect. I honestly doubt that it would be "similar" because without Kindness Rune trick being in effect, you could end up dealing 1/3 or 1/4 or even 1/5 of the damage with the trick being in effect. So it's not similar at all because the damage dealt would be way lower than if you use the trick. With attaching the Kite Rune in there, you wouldn't be able to attach either Double Beat to attack twice (which technically double the damage) or Gale Rune (to give better chance of extra attacks) or even Killer Rune (to give better chance of critical) to compensate the lower ATK due to the Exertion Rune doing nothing to the ATK stat.

You're right though that the effort is worth it or not is a matter of personal taste. I agree with that. But if you want to use the Kite Rune setup to its fullest effect like the way you typed it on the first page, you have to keep the Kindness Rune trick to be in effect the whole time. So if you played the game for 20 hours and you got Rina in your party for let's say 14 hours, you'd have to get her KO'ed 28 times. It's not worth it for me because even without the Kite Rune setup, she could still be nearly as useful.

Let me put it this way. When it comes to normal physical attack, with the Kite Rune setup there, anyone with 2 open rune slots could deal the same damage as Rina. While anyone with 3 open rune slots could deal even more. So from the normal physical attack point of view, Rina's Kite Rune setup isn't the best.

The only thing that makes the Kite Rune setup to be better than other setups is the ability to deal huge damage to all enemies. Yes, Rina is the only one that could do that and she is the best when it comes to dealing damage to all enemies. But again, do we need to deal 1500 damage to all enemies all the time? No, we don't because most of the normal enemies don't have that high HP anyway. So technically speaking, anyone with Kite or Great Hawk Rune, Double Strike Rune and the Kindness Rune trick would still be enough to kill most of the normal enemies. Hence, her advantage of being able to deal huge damage to all enemies isn't really *that* useful at all. It's like finishing the game with level 99 characters. Sure it's nice to be able to have higher stats, but it wouldn't really be that different compared to if you beat the game with level 55-60s characters.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In theory, Rina is an excellent character, but in practice....

In my party at the moment I have six powerful characters. At the end of the game, I can get into any battle, select attack for everyone and kite rune for Rina, and guess what, I win. However, Rina never, ever gets a chance to attack due to her abysmal SPD.

IMO, this is her only downfall.
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