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Sage
The Invincible Weeds
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, the shuttle has been delayed to most likely next week, last I read anyway. Secondly, I'd like to point out that I have received the following information from contacts within JPL. I am currently there interning for the summer and my project is developing mission designs to mitigate/eliminate some the big questions regarding getting people to the moon and Mars. In other words, 13 other students and myself have researched the difficulties in great detail.
Leb wrote: |
Are you sure you guys have that right about closing up shop in 2010? How are we doing the moon and Mars missions that Bush allocated hundreds of millions of dollars to? |
Yes, I'm sure about 2010. They're only retiring the shuttles, not the program. NASA's current plan is to develop and build a new CEV (crew exploration vehicle). It's first mission will be to the ISS in 2011. Hypothetically speaking anyway. Giving anyone 6 years to come up with a safe, reliable, reusable space vehicle will be challenge. Of course, I'm sure someone has at least started work on this. With hundreds of millions of dollars, we can't get anywhere. Remember those rovers on Mars? If you include the launch vehicles and development costs, each was $2B. Secondly, new vehicles will have to be designed to get to Mars. Currently, it's impossible.
Pyroflame wrote: |
We can't even ****ing get to Mars. |
While I don't agree with exactly how you put it, you are 100% correct. If anyone wants a extensive list of reasons, I'll be happy to share.
Finally, I agree with the comments that getting to Mars is a waste. There is really no point in setting foot on Mars beyond scientific exploration and proof of concept (which, being a scientist in training, is good enough for me). However, trust me on this, the technologies we've identified that need to be developed in order to do so will greatly help people on earth.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, Bush's plan is to get someone on Mars by 2030. Everyone here at JPL says at the earliest 2040. The current info on the lunar timeline is 4-5 day stays on the moon starting in 2018 leading to a outpost in 2022. _________________
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Lunarblade
White Wolf Templars
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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I think that it'd be great to go to Mars...simply because it would be the greatest acheivement in the history of mankind. I know it may not have many practical uses rushing there...but who said that everything had to have a practical use? Just the goal itself, in my opinion, is a noble one. _________________
Sinocard wrote: |
I dont think I am above women, I think I am above everyone. |
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Sai Fujiwara
Executors of Divine Providence
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Sars, if you think some nation isn't stupid enough to TRY and claim the moon, I'd say you're being naieve.
Granted, FIRST we have to actually have some kind of colony there, AND then it actually has to prove useful for something, BESIDES scientific research... Such as raw materials, and minerals.
That's why Antartica hasn't been claimed. There's no viable way to get at all that stuff that COULD be of use. It's buried under the ice at SUPER COLD sub-zero temperatures.
Anyway, that's just a minor, minor nitpick in what is otherwise an incredibly solid argument. If my old man read that, he'd kiss you for your arguments. He's been a huge follower of the US space program, since he was a kid. That's when all the Moon stuff was going on, and he watches all the shuttle launches and reads all the news about it.
Thing is, most people simply don't take into account what you're bringing up, what it takes to get there... Heck, until you pointed that out, I really didn't think of it, either, but that's an incredibly valid point. How can we move our craft around in deep space easily, AND how can we sustain ourselves, AND get back on such a long and extended mission. It's mind boggling to even concieve such a thing, and funny enough, they're the things we DON'T think about.
But, I agree. We do need to spend more money on space travel. I think we should attempt to come up with some type of artificial gravity device, so that we're not stuck floating around, and so that liquids aren't so dangerous. (It's easy to inhale water, when it's just floating around in mid-air.) I think the only things that have been concieved rely on centrifugal (sp) force that results from an object spinning at high speeds.
Personally, I'd die a happy man, if they invented a warp drive in my lifetime. I know that's going science fiction, but so was walking on the moon back in the 30s & 40s. Einstein might debate that faster-than-light is impossible, but I think it's feasable. Maybe not now, but SOME day, right? Well, at least I can dream... :mrgreen: _________________
Happily Married to the Lovely Lady Chris Lightfellow! :D |
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Sualtam Lugh
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:25 am Post subject: |
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"Einstein might debate that faster-than-light is impossible, but I think it's feasable."
It's feasable, but not in our lifetime. |
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Sage
The Invincible Weeds
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Artificial gravity according to several studies done for Mars travel could be done by spinning. Centrifugal force doesn't technically exist, but yeah, that's the idea. Only safely fast enough to generate on the order of 3 m/s^2 whereas earth's is closer to 10 m/s^2. That's fine because Mars gravity is approximately that anyway.
Warp drive or anything of that nature is way out of anyone's reach and I can't conceive of someone coming up with that within our lifetime. I wouldn't be disappointed if someone did, but I'm not holding my breath. We don't have the capability to launch to the moon or Mars (one of the MAJOR technical challenges), let alone go faster than light.
I am all for getting someone (most likely several someones) on Mars. It's the only motivation I really have for doing my work. _________________
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Lunarblade
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:42 am Post subject: |
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I actually remember reading an article in a magazine (it was Scientific American IIRC) that had theories on how we could possibly move at the speed of light (or at least close to it). There were some really crazy ideas, such as an antimatter engine, etc. Having seen all we've accomplished in the last couple of centuries, it seems like it's only a matter of time before we can travel around our own solar system and beyond at will. Of course, money is involved too...Sai Fujiwara's point kind of applies here.
It's possible (or even probable) that someday a country will claim part of space somewhere (be it a planet, moon, or what have you) and that will either start a conflict or a mad dash to harvest all the resources there. Possibly both. There are obvious problems with this occurance...but at the same time, the greedy side of human nature will force more interest and research into space...it's unfortunate, but I don't think humanity can find itself to care about something unless it reaps an immediate benefit. Sad, but...
Anyway, hope the shuttle launch goes well next week, at least. _________________
Sinocard wrote: |
I dont think I am above women, I think I am above everyone. |
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Sage
The Invincible Weeds
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Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: |
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If I recall, anitmatter engines can only increase one's velocity up to ½ light speed, theoretically. Don't worry though, there are still people working on advanced propulsion.
Lunarblade wrote: |
It's possible (or even probable) that someday a country will claim part of space somewhere (be it a planet, moon, or what have you) and that will either start a conflict or a mad dash to harvest all the resources there |
Someone already laid claim to Eros, an asteroid. Space has long been open to everyone (the government tries not to let anyone know since they have a monopoly on it currently). NASA landed a mission, NEAR, on the asteroid Eros and some guy decided he'd claim Eros and he actually sent the U.S. government a bill for rent.
There are resources on the moon, but the technical problem is getting them out. Basically, the only one we have for sure is oxygen bound up in minerals. We'd have to heat up the minerals to temperatures higher than any possible containing material can withstand in order to get the oxygen out. Could be ice at the poles, but H2O at that temperature is denser than concrete. Good luck getting that out. _________________
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Sage
The Invincible Weeds
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Take 2: it's set to take off Tuesday July 26 at 10:39 a.m. eastern time. If the same sensor problem crops up, they most likely won't scrub the launch, but if something different comes up, they will. _________________
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