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Freedom of Choice
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That'd depend on the kind of choice. A person lining up at a cafeteria has a certain selection they can choose from. They may choose menu A because it's his favorite food, or menu B because his fiend said menu B is very good. He can also choose to go eat outside instead so he can eat what he wants; that means he is not constrained by the choices forced by the cafeteria. Is this free choice? No, because he is still constrained by the fact that he must eat. However, he is still making a choice, albeit within given limits.

What if a person chooses to not eat, even though it will result in death? He's still constrained by whatever ideology that makes him starve to death, and his choice is also limited by his own mortality. Thus, mankind's physical body limits the choice he can make. Thus, he does not have free choice; however, he still can choose within the constraints given to him.

In another case, a person drinks alcohol. One person is addicted, and thus has no choice due to the said addiction. The other person is not addicted, and thus is able to choose to not drink alcohol. In this case, the second person is excercising free choice within the context of this example, while the first person has no choice. This shows that choice is relative to each individual.

As far as knowledge and thought, a person can be influenced by their knowledge to act in a certain way, but knowledge can be influenced by a person. Regardless, knowledge does not exist ab ovo, and thus knowledge must have been created by mankind. This must mean free choice must have existed originally when there was "no knowledge"; Or does it?

Not exactly, as natural law has existed ab initio, and has restricted the choice that mankind can make. Due to natural law, humans can not fly by flapping their arms like birds, it is impossible. Thus, they can not "choose" to fly." However, they can choose other means to achieve the same end, although that brings on more constraints. However, when you look at choice as merely a means to an end, you can see that there is no distinction between these two choices. In case 1, there was no choice, but in case two, there is a choice.

Working in the automotive business, you see choices made all the time. You can make an engine out of various types of materials; you can choose the number of cylinders, valves, injectors, etc. You can choose whether the engine will be diesel or gasoline, (or whatever else). There are consequences to these choices, ob viously. A diesel engine would have more torque and horsepower, while a gasoline engine would have better gas mileage. Choices made by consumers when they choose different vehicles definitely have different consequences. These are not free choices per se due to the constraints that come with vehicles, but there certainly is a choice.

Anyhow, that's my attempt to understand Urn's argument.
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Urn

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'll admit that I have made this discussion entirely too misleading. I have come to lead this discussion down the direction that calls into the debate as to whether or not the absence of "free choice" means the absent of "choice". This is quite misleading and I'll concede to that fact. My original purpose was to present the notion that there is no "free choice". I believe I have successfully done that.

Unfortunately, I have now gotten the discussion a bit out of hand due to my very argumentative personality and the fact that I will debate anything no matter if I believe it to be true or not in order to give a difference of opinion. Thus, I state here and now that there is a "choice", but I still leave it in quotes based on the varied factors that must be considered when we mention the word choice. So, yes, I will consent to the idea of "choice" in order to cease from any further misleading.

Yes, we can possibly forget about conditioning but this gives way to another form of conditioning. Every behavior is the result of some form of conditioning. One cannot act without being conditioned and thus every choice is based on a particular condition. Humans or any rational being cannot act without a condition.

Conditioning's intent is to limit us to one real choice, which is considered the best or most suitable decision for any given action. Of course, there is the saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat, but we must remember that those other ways are just acceptable but there is only one right way.

Although, we must consider the flawed nature of humanity which is not intended to be perfect. But, again, the goal of conditioning and government is to present one option which is the single best option. I will be realistic and finally concede that the possibility of this occuring is impossible due to the flawed nature of all systems maintained by humans. But, in a perfect or ideal society we would all, for all intents and purposes, be absent of choice and perform as automatons.

I'll certainly agree to your last paragraph Shrew. But, free will is an interesting concept...nah, I'll just leave it alone, though. ;-)
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Trevoke

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Urn wrote:
Government law is meant to hinder personal freedom, that is my firm stance. Many citizens are under the delusion that the government serves the people, but the people are constantly constrained through the laws enforced through government. We have consciously given away our personal freedoms in confidence of government law which willingly represses our freedoms at will. We have been conditioned for centuries to accept this as the norm.


I know this is out of the topic and two pages back, but...

Alright then, Urn, what is the alternative ?
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Government law is meant to hinder personal freedom, that is my firm stance. Many citizens are under the delusion that the government serves the people, but the people are constantly constrained through the laws enforced through government. We have consciously given away our personal freedoms in confidence of government law which willingly represses our freedoms at will. We have been conditioned for centuries to accept this as the norm."

Furthermore, if this IS the case, why don't we all have anarchy? I mean, if one person can realize this, we all can. Furthermore, we all want out freedom to choose, so why not overthrow the government? What? Because we're too lazy? Where do we start?

We haven't been conditioned, we just find what we have to work with enough. We don't need total control. Total control doesn't always work. Total control gets us dead.

Simply put, Trev....the alternative is anarchy. No government. No one to tell you how to live. Wear a seatbelt if you so fancy. The opposite of government is no government after all. Anarchy is just that. No leader, you live by yourself.
------
Thinking about it further, it's not the government that stops us....it's ourselves. Humans, as a whole. Follow me here. Say I want to kill you. Well, I have the freedom to do this. If I kill you, I go to jail. However, the government isn't the only one who slurs the freedom of choice. By wanting to kill you, I'm cutting in on your freedom. You WANT to live, yet I can take that away. Instead of making it the government who's the badguy, realize the the governmental staff who put these rules into effect...we'll they're human too. It's on a whole different level. The man isn't trying to bring us down....we're trying to supress each other, to make a working community.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wait, did Urn change name AGAIN?
I'm confused. Well, at least Pyroflame, whoever he is, is defending my argument :-)
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*chuckles* It's funny. I've been here longer than you, but my absence/hiding away in Zexen keeps me unknown. I love it.
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Trevoke

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, I'm afraid my confusion stems from a much, much simpler reason..
You write like Urn.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*slams his head against his table*

Ehh?!!!!!

Damn....
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok now this is just confusing me as I was expecting posts about you know, the topic title and all. But who I am to talk, considering this could be about the freedom of choice, to post in a fashion similar to Urn. I suppose that could be seen as a weird form of freedom of choice, though it confuses some people. Not myself though. Anyways could you all please try to get back to the topic at hand. I happen to like this topic and dont want it closed.
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Trevoke

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Heh, alright, fine.

Then, to go back to the topic, Urn, once you read Pyroflame's post about the alternative to government, you'll understand that the loss of SOME freedoms is a necessity for society to work.

Yes: you cannot steal. You cannot kill. You cannot masturbate in public.
Deal with it. If you cannot take the government's laws, go live as a hermit, that is also your choice.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Although the idea of anarchy is irrelevant to the issue of freedom of choice or choice due to the fact that our choices are purposefully limited in order to prevent anarchy in the first place. I think I was ask what an alternative was, and I'll ask the same question back. I had no intention of giving an answer to a problem that has persisted for ages. People are always going to be unhappy with government because they suppress choice, but does this lead to anarchy in every case? Of course not.

One cannot equate lack of government to chaos since we know not of any conceivable situation where there is no functioning ruling body. Choice is naturally supressed at all times. A governing body is not necessary, the laws are what is necessary to resist chaos. Governing bodies are created to enforce those laws. Societies just form governing bodies in order to establish a publicly recognized group. Ironically, forming these governments involve willingly giving up the ability to make real choice.

We don't need government to know that killing is bad. This is based on natural law. Government reflects society, not the other way around. Chaos will ensue if people stop obeying laws, but I argue that this is impossible due to the conditioning of human minds predisposed to obey law which government enforces. There was not always government, but societies functioned before.

I'm not saying that government is not useful and I know people are going to say, wow he believes there is no use for government and that is definitely not what I'm saying. I'm saying that government is only as useful as the people it governs and the laws it is charged with enforcing. Law and the compliance of the public are the components for repressing anarchy. Government is just a by-product of the public's compliance. But, the fact that people are arguing for government shows that they believe choice must be repressed and limited, but allow people to think they have the ability to decide freely.

Also, I never said that the lack of freedom was necessary. I said that the lack of freedoms represses our ability to choose. I'll readily agree that some freedoms should be repressed and are repressed. But, does repressed or constrained options allow for choice or does it give birth to an illusion of choice? That's my question and I still believe that for the most part, choice is an illusion in society.

I believe someone asked for an alternative. Sorry, but I had no intention of giving one. I never intended to give an answer. I was just giving an opinion and another way to think. I say that government uses the illusion of choice to satisfy the public and make them at ease with the fact that they have no true ability to choose. That's my opinion. No need for an alternative because essentially it works.

And I'm sorry that my statements are confusing, but that may have been my intent; to confuse people in order to get them to think, but I already apologized for being misleading. But, having what I have in my mind and expressing it to others is easier said than done and that is the reason my statements came out the way it did. I tried to simplify and it led to things coming out more complicated
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Last edited by Urn on Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sualtam Lugh

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Anarchy is perceived as chaos. It is simply a form of government where there....well, there ISN'T a government. That CAN be chaos (When a government is overthrown by anarchy, with rebellions and what not.), but it isn't reserved only for chaos.
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Urn

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, anarchy usually results from a failure in government, but technically is not when there ISN'T a government. Anarchy is just a state of lawlessness and disorder. It can also be defined as a state of political disorder and confusion. It does not necessarily imply that there is no government, but an absence of government CAN cause anarchy just as well as government CAN exist in a state of anarchy. So, you're right that it is not only reserved for chaos, but basically it is the same principle and anarchy and chaos are typically synonymous with one another.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Anarchy is just a state of lawlessness and disorder."

Disorder means no order (no organization. People do what they choose. This doesn't have to be bad.). It doesn't mean chaos. Lawlessness means everyone's free to do whatever. This is "technically" not having government at all.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Are we still discussing that? I already agreed with you that it doesn't only mean chaos. I said it can be used synonymously with anarchy, but it isn't the only meaning. Why are we still on that subject?

Disorder does not necessarily mean people do what they choose to do, it just means the absence of order. Order maintains discipline, thus disorder only helps to limit discipline. Really doesn't mean people will do whatever they choose to do. There are other things you must consider. Lawlessness also does not imply that people are free to do whatever. It just means the absence of law. You may argue that without law people will do whatever they want, but again that is if you don't consider other constraints. Law is not the only thing that prevents people from committing certain acts. Thus, you cannot exactly parallel disorder and lawlessness as freedom to do whatever.

Also, you cannot parallel anarchy with no government, as well. But, if you say anarchy can "technically" mean no government I'll give you that. In fact, I already consented to that. I said before that anarchy can persist without government, but anarchy is usually an after effect. But, anarchy does not exactly equate to the absence of government because government can exist in a state of anarchy. Thus, one does not imply the lack of the other because at times they can coexist.
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