The Circle Rune

[Sualtam Lugh]

There seems to be a lot of misconceptions, due to a lack of information, and a lot of hypotheses towards the motives of Hikusaak, and his involvement in many things. And a lot of times, it always falls back on the Circle Rune.

Now...I read, don't know who said it, but it was on this forum, someone commented that the Rune of Change is the Opposite from the Circle Rune. Simple. Change =/= Cycle.

Now, the thing is, people didn't know what to label Hikusaak. He rebels against Aronia, and creates Harmonia. The name Harmonia = Harmony = collective beauty/peaceful co-existance. Yet, Harmonia's tried invasions everywhere. Grasslands, Gate Clan, Lorimar. We know, technically, that Hikusaak IS behind these, as the leader of Harmonia. Harmonia's always in wars. No matter where we are. Yet, the Sindar aren't. Ever.

Could the Circle Rune's purpose be to reanimate the past events? Allow me to clarify. Every Suikoden has had a main character topple some for of Government, even Anarchial (Technically, Luc's plan in 3 DID cause for Hugo to become the leader of the Grasslands, and unite them all.) and the regeneration of a Country, as a whole. (SME => Toran. Jowston =? Dunan Unification. Broken Grasslands + Angry Zexen = Happy Together Grasslands, and Happy Allied Zexen, and Kooluk + Messed up Island Nations => No more Kooluk, or at least subdued Kooluk, and less messed up Island Nations (And whatever happens in Rhapsodia)......do these not mirror Hikusaak's first greatest act? Do you see what I'm saying? The Sindarians run, from ever having to face the same thing again, due to the Change Rune. However, the Circle Rune, in Collaboration with the Stone Tablet, relive the creation of Harmonia, in a different way. Even more so, every single revolution happens because of a true rune. Maybe that's why Harmonia...no, that's why Hikusaak wants all the runes. To create Harmony. As long as the runes stay scattered, the Circle Cycle, as I'll dub it, will happen again, and people will die. And his invasions of such places as the Lorimar (Which ended in not only a truce, but a friendship between Harmonia and Warrior's Village), and Gate Clan Village (Where a true rune WAS held) make sense. Heck, attacking Grasslands for the True Fire Rune.
Stop me if I'm wrong.

Note: If someone brings up the Beast Rune, and how Harmonia gave it to the Blight family, you forget that the Rune of Beginning (Which plays a much larger role than that of the Beast Rune) was located in Jowston, which Highland would come to invade. Give Highland the rune, let them destroy, or invade, or whatever Jowston, Harmonia collects the Rune of Beginning, AND the Beast Rune.

A lot of assumptions? No, not really. All these events did happen, (save my note, which is there to somehow justify giving away a true rune, when Hikusaak wants them all. ), but why remains the answer.

Who thinks I'm crazy?

[Kurt Angle]

Actually, I don't. I think you made a vallid point there. As little as we know of Hikusaak, there's a good admount of theries (sp?) about the person. Harmonia does seem set on the whole goal of taking all 27 True Runes (Might be more that we don't know). Well as far as we know, Luc had the True Wind Rune (Please bare with me, I only have the Suikoden 3 Manga, not the game). Sasari had the True Earth. Hugo with the True Fire and Geddoe with True Lightning. Chris with the True Water.

So far thats five....

Hero4- Rune of Punishment
Riou- Bright Shield/ Rune of Begining
Jowy- Dark Sword
McDohl- Soul Eater
Geddoe- True Lightning
Sasari- True Earth
Luc- True Wind
Chris- True Water (I think)
Hugo- True Fire
Blight Family- Beast Rune
Hikusaak- Circle Rune (Maybe)
Sindar- Rune of Change
Leknaat- Gate Rune
Barbarossa- Soverign Rune
Millia- Dragon Rune
Star Dragon Sword/ Edge- Night Rune
Sierra- Blue Moon

Thats 17 of the 27 Runes that we know of, well that I can think of off the top of my head.

Harmonia has tried to invade where their was True Runes, like you mentioned Pyro. But as far as I can remember, I don't think Harmonia has invaded the Goya (Dragon Knights region). I think Lonimar is the closest that they've gotten to that area. Now I do agree with what you posted. Harmonia just seems to be playing a huge game of 'Collector' in the Suikoden world. Heck, some of these runes we don't even know where they're at. Like the Soverign Rune. We don't know that Barbarossa survived the fall because of the Rune's abilitly to alow the user to live, unless of illness or it leaves the host.

I do think that Harmonia would more than likely invade Highland, providing that Luca or Jowy had defeated the Liberation Army. It would seem natural for them, I mean in the Suikoden world they tried to invade Higheast after Highland lost to the new army. Harmonia wanted their land back that they gave to the Blights. But I think that if they was to get the land back, they would've probly pushed more into Duran to get Riou's rune and Jowy's rune. But thats my oppion.

One question I've got is now with the Rune of Punishment revealed, we don't know if Harmonia has tried to invade the Island Nations.

Sorry if this seems confusing or weird. I haven't played past Suikoden 2 and the Manga is all I've got for 3. I know very little of 4 so I just tried to use my knowlage on that. Again I appologize for any trouble.
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[Beecham]

You missed Eightfold rune, which belongs to Yuber...

[Sualtam Lugh]

1 - Chris has the True Water
2 - Yeah, Yuber (18/27)

And, very true. (Hopes this doesn't come off assholish) If you have the time, I suggest you replay Suikoden 2. It's just...too good, and a lot of my basis comes from that game.

You're very right. I just wanted to see if anyone else saw that certain trend in the games. (Hell, even the Elemental Heros (Geddoe, Jimba, Fire Hero), they had their rebellion. Then again, with all 4 (Luc was "bad" this time around, but even he was rebelling....against Fate and not a country) they fought and won.)

While I don't know about the Island Nations one, it's still the same situation. Whether or not Harmonia struck these places (You must remember, in my parallels, Harmonia would technically be the good guys) isn't important, just the point of rebellion (ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL) with a true rune.

[Kurt Angle]

I remember seeing about Yuber's Eightfold. I didn't remember it until about half an hour after I posted here.

True, all rebelions in the Suikoden world are based around the True Runes, well the ones we know of so far. Thats one reason why I agree with the Harmonia would've invaded Highland if they defeated Duran and Jowston. Hikusaak must've known that the there would be a week point in the Blight's rule over Highland. Thats why they would've probly waited after the Duran Unification War. Highland's army was already tired by the middle of the war, they probly wouldn't be able to stop the onslaught of the Harmonians. Unless they did something like 'Give us the Beast Rune or we'll invade'. Knowing how the character Luca was, I severly doubt that he would hand it over for no reason. Jowy might not have either. But then again this was a possiblity that I thought of.

You didn't sound assholish in your statement. I'd love to play Suikoden 2 again, I've just got to get another copy of it.
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[Beecham]

Well, the Beast rune CHOSE L'Reronile as its bearer, and Harmonia knows this. Thus, your theory would not be ficible for that particular case... Also, it was mentioned that Highland paid a high price to request help from Harmonia, which means $$... thus, if it was not for $$, Harmonia wouldn't even have bothered...

And another thing... Wars in the world, be it reality or Suiko, are driven by want... Taking from some real life example, there is much violence caused by want for oil, or want of a particular religion/race to be superior, or want for land... Similarly, the wars in the Suiko world occurs through want for power (1), want for peace (2), want to destroy oneself :shock: (3), and want for land (4)... Thus, the theory for true runes being a reason is not entirely wrong, but it is not the only reason wars exists...

[Admiral Ackbar]

We do know more about the Circle Rune.

The Circle Rune represents order. But like all True Runes, there is a negative accompanying the positive. The negative affect of the Circle Rune is that order also also causes stagnation.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that we've seen the Circle Rune's symbol before. In Suikoden 3's artwork for the "bad guys" (the big picture with the enemies in it) you can see a circular symbol repeated around the edges in the corners. You also see this symbol on the Harmonian soldiers I believe. What leads me to believe this is the Circle Rune is the fact that the True Fire Rune's symbol sits in the same place on the cover art, around the edges in the corners.

But barely anyone believes me. But this wouldn't be the first time Konami snuck a True Rune symbol by us.

Before Suikoden 3 was released I kept telling everyone that the rune symbols on the card game cards for Luc and Sasarai showed symbols different than the normal wind and earth symbols. The symbols were actually the true rune symbols, and Konami kind of snuck them in under the radar and no one noticed until after the game was released.
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[Sualtam Lugh]

"Also, it was mentioned that Highland paid a high price to request help from Harmonia, which means $$... thus, if it was not for $$, Harmonia wouldn't even have bothered... "

Yes, I know that Harmonia knows the Beast Rune chose L'R. That's not the point. Highland is under the impression that Harmonia gave them the rune. THAT'S what's important.

Another thing. I never said that every true rune had a situation like this. No one knows what happened to the Beast Rune.

Also, you mentioned Joshua and the Dragon Rune. 1 - Harmonia knows that if the bearer dies, the dragons die. Why risk that? 2 - Harmonia is just like any other country. Of course they're going to try expansion. Lorimar was just like F you, please, and Harmonia said fine.

[RedCydranth]

Reading through this thread, I came up with a quick question that can be simply answered. I thought that the Rune of Beginning split into two, Bright Shield, and Dark Sword. This would mean that each of them represent 1/2 of a true rune, and aren't counted as a whole one. This would reduce the count to 17. Similarly, the Gate Rune was separated by Windy and Leknaat and each of them owned 1/2 of a rune. If the separation of the rune of beginning is counted as 2, then so would the separation of the Gate Rune, upping the count to 19. So.. what's the verdict?
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[Urn]

Well, the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes don't count as True Runes, so they don't effect the count and the Gate Rune being split is irrelevant based on the fact that they are just two halves of the same Gate Rune. Thus, the count still remains 17.

No one has encountered the Rune of Beginning in actuality (you can see it if you let Riou kill Jowy, though), but as far as cannon information goes, the Rune of Beginning has yet to be seen as the Bright Shield and Black Sword Runes exist naturally apart and only form the Rune of Beginning when put together. Does that answer the question?
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Scarlet Assassin]

While this is all a wonderful theory, I'm having a hard time believing it. I think it's more feasible that as the holder of the Circle Rune, Hikuusaak undestands that all things that have a beginning must have an ending, thus he fears his own end. He's gone into hiding and begun collecting all the things that could be used as great tools against him (true runes). But that's just my theory.

As far as him creating a cycle, it's believable, but the little quirks are too much to ignore and simply pass off all these battles as results of the circle rune. On top of that, Harmonia's influence was nonexistant in SUikoden 1, so that's already one that has nothing to with Harmonia.

As far as the beast rune goes, ir chose the palace, that much is known, and I wouldn't be comfortable with assuming that the Highlanders all believe it was a present from Harmonia. I believe the Blight family would know better. ANd seeing as how the Beast rune ran off the first time, I doubt good ol' Hiku would be too interested in an attempt to get it back forcefully, I'm sure he wouldn't attempt locking it in a clone either.

And the Rune of beginning is still a true rune, just because it has two seperate components at this point in time doesn't meant hat it's not a true rune. We've seen the power of each, and I've seent he rune of beginning myself (had Riou kill Jowy, I hate that blonde punk.) As far as canonical information goes, no we haven't been introduced to the rune of beginning yet, but it still coutns as one, and we still know about it. So that's 18 true runes that have been introduced.

Finally, Kooluk was counting on getting backup from Harmonia. It was mentioned briefly, but Harmonia's presence was still in the area during the conflict, and served as partial motivation for the Koolik empire to act as they did.
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Chief of Beat-em-up Honeys Division, Devoted Protector of Lady Tifa Lockhart

[Beecham]

We are aware of that Urn... Perhaps you should do the counting?? There are 18 runes, including the rune of beginning...

EDIT: Hmm? One is missing... I was dead sure there were 18 at last count... Can someone confirm this??

[Urn]

Scarlet Assassin has already cleared that up, but my count is not off at 17. I'll add the True Runes we know of below as an update and if I miss one please correct me:

1. Rune of Life and Death a.k.a. Soul Eater a.k.a. Rune of Judgement
2. Gate Rune (Front and Back)
3. Dragon Rune
4. Night Rune
5. Blue Moon Rune
6. Rune of Beginning (Bright Shield Rune and Black Sword Rune are components)
7. Beast Rune
8. True Wind Rune
9. True Earth Rune
10. True Fire Rune
11. True Lightning Rune
12. True Water Rune
13. Rune of Change
14. Circle Rune
15. Hachifusa or Eightfold Rune
16. Sovereign Rune
17. Rune of Punishment a.k.a. Rune of Atonement and Forgiveness

So, there are 17 True Runes..where does anyone find another to add? Did I miss one? I don't think I did, but again, correct me if I did.
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~ Humbly walk the path of death

KOOLUK SUPPORTS TINTO MINERS

[Rexus Blade]

Hikusaak seems to be gathering all the 27 true runes for one reason... To create order, much like the Circle Rune is for. If you have all the Runes, all the things that have caused all these wars, if you contain all the power, you create the order in the world.

Luc in Suiko3 was trying to destroy himself and the true wind rune in order to prevent this control, he shows Hugo what the world will end up like... stagnant with order, nothing happening, black and white. If Luc could destroy a True rune, he could prevent Hikusaak from gathering all the true runes for good.

I thought Luc was a brave man for his attempt to save the world, he was willing to sacrifice himself for the good of the world... But Hugo and the rest could not see the big picture.

But that's just my point of view.
:mrgreen:
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The mind is the most powerful thing in the world... Never forget that.

[Jossef]

Just to add to your list Urn, the "Dragon Rune" is missing from that list.

Just thought the Dragon Knights, Joshua and Milia would be none to be pleased about their rune being missed out. :P

EDIT: Arg, Urn pointed out that it indeed was already there... I checked throught that several times and still I missed it. Guess my glasses aren't working... :oops:

About the Circle Rune, I can't say I'm particularly sure about it, there just isn't enough information.

If I were to go with any assumption, it would be Hikusaak is trying to create order by obtaining all of the true runes. Mostly because it is said the true runes can influence, and even control, a bearer's actions and the rune would be naturally trying to do what its purpose seems to be for.

And that is create order.
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