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Editorial: The Nature of Hikusaak II

 
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Vextor




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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:22 pm    Post subject: Editorial: The Nature of Hikusaak II Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Article URL--
http://www.suikox.com/ed/harmonia50617.html

Please discuss the article here. I am interested in feedback, especially regarding the following points--

1. I know that many people like articles about specific characters, but how did you like having a guest writer?

2. What did you like/dislike about the article?

3. Did the article change your perception of Hikusaak or any other character/place/historical period? Why/why not?
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John Layfield

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

1. I know that many people like articles about specific characters, but how did you like having a guest writer?

This 'incarnation' of the Hikusaak debate was much better that the previous one. As such, I have absolutely no problems with having a guest writer for this one.

2. What did you like/dislike about the article?

It was well written for the most part, it used the little available evidence available to paint and support a picture of Hikusaak surprisingly consistent with what we know. This, however, is also a flaw, it painted a picture of what many already consider to be the case. In that sense, it's the equivilient of an article saying "Crime is Illegal". No matter how well it's written, there isn't anything new to get out of it.

However, it slided into real politics near the end. It's not entirely noticable amongst the actual comparisons to the real world but it is there. It sort of jarred me out of the Suikoden world, I guess you could say.

3. Did the article change your perception of Hikusaak or any other character/place/historical period? Why/why not?

As usual, I'd have to say no. At the risk of sounding big-headed, these ideas have all pretty much zoomed across my head in the past although I would not be able to express it nearly as well as Sai Fujiwara did here.
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Last edited by John Layfield on Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

1. I know that many people like articles about specific characters, but how did you like having a guest writer?

It doesn't matter to me, as long as it's well-written.

2. What did you like/dislike about the article?

I didn't like this one, since it is essentially another Hikusaak theory with way
too many I thinks and I assumes.

3. Did the article change your perception of Hikusaak or any other character/place/historical period? Why/why not?

Not really, since this editorial doesn't give any new information, just the same blah
I've heard before. I wouldn't mind it so much if these theories were deep, but they
really weren't in my opinion.

If I sound rude, then sorry. Consider it constructive criticism instead of a bashing.
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Arcana

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'll take some time to discuss the article itself instead of opinions about the article, because Sai brings up some great points that are worthy of more detailed discussion. (I personally believe that the previous Hikusaak editorial was meant for the same purpose - promoting discussion instead of trying to convince someone to believe a certain viewpoint, and it's a shame that so little discussion was created when that article was posted).

Quote:
With that said, I think that it's 100% safe to assume that Hikusaak was in charge of Harmonia, and aware of the activities being carried out by his forces at the time of Solar Year 70. I don't think we can deny that Hikusaak was aware of and allowed the massacre of the Gate Rune Clan.


The timeline that Sai quoted does not actually support OR deny this fact.

In general, I think that Sai's initial statements (the whole first half of the article, in fact) was an attempt to try to prove that Hikusaak was still alive, but most of the quoted material he used does not happen to support that thesis. His "killer points" are in fact the references that Sasarai and Luc use to describe Hikusaak - the fact that he is their "father" and that he created them as clones. That to me was really all that needed to be described to provide somewhat convincing evidence that Hikusaak was still alive.

(Aside: I find it strange that people pass Luc and Sasarai off as clones when they do not look anything like one another. I also find it odd that Hikusaak would intentionally create children without blonde hair and blue eyes, as per the Harmonian ideal. While one may state that Hitler did not fit his own Aryan stereotype, Hitler also didn't have the ability to create life with characteristics of his own design.)

Quote:
What will lead to a closer idea of Hikusaak's nature is the existence of the third class and sub-human caste rankings.


Sai uses the term "obviously tyrannical" to describe the caste system, when in fact it's not very clear that a caste system is tyrannical at all. Not even 140 years ago, slavery was legal in the United States. Women couldn't vote for President in the U.S. until 1920. Only in the last few hundred years have the concepts of equality and liberty erupted as commonplace and as being the "right" way to do things; many nations still do not recognize individual rights as being the norm for citizens.

Although many people label, for example, the Hindu Caste system as "evil", it arose more of a function of society and defining job responsibilities instead of being a system designed to oppress.

As a result, I believe that the claim that "caste system implies evil leader" does not compute.

It would have been a much easier argument to simply continue along the lines the article began with and to establish the imperialism of Harmonia as evidence of its leader's ambition, but even that does not prove or disprove Hikusaak being evil. People would hardly label Napolean Bonaparte, Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great as evil simply because they conquered other nations.

Finally, I agree with the other commenters that the comparisons made to modern political leaders was probably unnecessary. Hitler was a staunch man, devoted to his ways, and of high moral character - he never drank, was well educated, and could essentially be called a poster-boy of modern politics. However, his something caused him to be lead astray and he committed numerous atrocities. Do you label Hitler as evil? What he did was certainly deplorable but are we really in the position to judge him? The other problem with invoking Hitler and Nazism is that it reeks immediately of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law]Godwin's Law[/url], and as a result ends up discrediting the author and the basis of argument.

So overall, while I agree that one cannot assign inherently evil or inherently not evil labels to people, I don't think assigning individual traits "evil" or "not evil" labels and adding up the resulting shade of gray is a way to claim that Hikusaak is therefore in the gray area.

Still, I appreciate the thought and effort that went into the article and it serves as a good basis for more detailed discussion.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

1. I know that many people like articles about specific characters, but how did you like having a guest writer?

Guest writers are good in order to hear a different perspective or to take editorials in a different direction. But they are "guest" writers for a reason.

2. What did you like/dislike about the article?

The article was ok. I find it hard to find an overall concept that was conveyed. There were a few small parts that conveyed a point, but I think it failed to form a coherent overall flow or argument. I would have preferred to walk away with a general conept satisfied with several relating points explained, but I didn't feel that here. Other than that, it was fine.

3. Did the article change your perception of Hikusaak or any other character/place/historical period? Why/why not?

No, unfortunately not. Given that there's not much info regarding him to begin with, it's hard to find something to drastically change one's perspective.
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Acheron

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

1. I know that many people like articles about specific characters, but how did you like having a guest writer?

I thought it was a well written, insightful and well thought out article. Good job mystery writer. Hikusaak has a lot of potential for growth and has such a variability about him that this subject could go on for ages and not come to any decisive conclusion, that is until the game helps a little bit.

2. What did you like/dislike about the article?

I really liked the German parallel that it brought up, mainly because that crossed my mind while thinking about Harmonia recently. THe Aryan, blonde hair and blue eyes thing is the first blatent tip-off but there are other parallels brought up that I hadn't considered.

There wasn't anything in particular that I didn't like about the article. Good length, not too wordy but with enough detail to get the point out. I liked the subject matter and the style had a bit of a personalistic flare that was brought on by the little jokes seeded in the article. Made the text feel more relaxed and made it easier to read, as opposed to a painstakingly arduous read in a text book.

3. Did the article change your perception of Hikusaak or any other character/place/historical period? Why/why not?

The article brought to light some points about Hikusaak that I hadn't considered but I think my opinions of him/her (I think its a him) still stand. I think he's a good man, or at least thinks that he's a good man. He may uphold the "ends justify the means" life strategy but thats my take on him.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've only had the chance to read the start but in concurrence with Acheron's comments that Sai brought up the Hitlersaak reference I'll make a comment about that.

He does indeed run a parallel aryan policy but I'll also note that from the start I had time to read that it is definitely not safe to assume Hikusaak is good. Hitler was a hero in his own country at that point in time, he was popular for a time too. If Hikusaak is based upon the Hitler (the policy, him deviating from the policy himself but not caring (assumed from Luc's eye colour I suppose)) from our history I would not be calling him good.

It does remain to be seen if he is indeed based upon that however and as I said I haven't read the article completely so I'm not sure if Sai acknowledged that.

Edit: Okay, just read it all, don't really know why I couldn't manage it the first time through now I think about it but I digress.

Sai did cover the aspects of conversation I brought up fairly well, not too sure about his ideas of him being like Bush, I mean yes there is a definite religious slant but I'm not sure of Hikusaak's morality personally, I'm still seeing him as a reasonably evil or benevolent ruler.

The writing was pretty good as a whole, thanks for the read Sai.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The article itself was kind of strange because I don't really understand what the whole point the article was trying to bring up was. Was it to make a claim that Hikusaak was good? Was it to emphasize the fact that he must still be alive? Was it to chronicle his actions and try to evaluate his decisions as a leader? Was it to bring up a parallel to real-life leaders? I don't really know if Sai succeeded in trying to present the message he set out to present. It brings up some interesting facts and makes some good observations but lacks a strong coherence.

You'll notice that the article starts off trying to be strict and formal in its style (for example, quoting established sources), probably because the guest writer Myaru last week received a lot of flak for posting only speculation, but the tone of Sai's article changes as he gets into it and it becomes just about as speculative as the first Editorial on Hikusaak. I maintain (as do others) that the entire topic really can't be presented as a series of conclusions that were based on fact since Hikusaak simply does not receive enough attention in the games or in publications. It's all speculation because Konami hasn't provided us with any more information.

I don't mean to wail heavily on Sai or anything. It was still interesting (the random facts were nice to read), but SARSadmin did ask us for our opinion, and I felt that this article did bring up many points to discuss and debate - not just in the context of a fictional role-playing video game, but also in the context of modern politics.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

1. I know that many people like articles about specific characters, but how did you like having a guest writer?

Does it really matter that he is a guest writer? It was a Suikoden editorial and I think we are all mature enough to appreciate all sources.

2. What did you like/dislike about the article?

Sigh, I have to agree with most people. The final 3rd of the article was kind of off point, and showed a very definate and obvious bias (though many would argue it is justified.) Using Hitler as an example was interesting, and obviously fairly obvious in some ways, but I found his
conclusivness on some of the points a bit weird. He also neglected to mention things like the fact the whole aryan is hardly new, and was in fact based on Nietzche. That might have been an interesting point.

Not to go to deeply into my own theroies I thought his whole argument was going towards or at least trying to suggest that sometime after the Clift incident Hikusaak went 'bad'. That is that he was going along doing good and noble etc.'s but then he one day got tainted, and started chasing pipe dreams, supported by the most powerful nation in the world. That is honestly where I thought it was going (and is incidently what I believe to a degree.) In the end however, he pretty much tried to sum up an argument that was trying to expand points. By suggesting he is grey, and thats it, he sort of wasted all that time giving us examples of how he changed. He sort of suggested that Hikusaak was one dimentional, that he never changed, and that it was all one linear process. That was a real pity I think. Also, his reference to Bush, while interesting in some ways, hardly seems much of an argument when you consider that Bush isn't the first to start a war that is considered unjust, and has relatively clean hands.

It was good in the way it actually listed dates and stuff. I hadn't read those sort of things in a while and it certainly saved time, rather then having me constantly reffering to another list.

3. Did the article change your perception of Hikusaak or any other character/place/historical period? Why/why not?

On the whole, no, it didn't realy change anything. However his points in some ways helped me consolidate my opinions. Also, anyone who would honestly call this conclusive has really missed the point of the piece: it really is ment to be a catalyst for discussion.

A nice article overall, but slightly unfocused message.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

1. I have to agree that the guest writer point is relatively minor here. As editorials either take a somewhat satirical or humorous slant, or a serious speculative slant, there's less need for the benefits of having a guest writer - which is mostly that one can take an issue in a far different or more controversial direction. However, even if that were the purpose, I don't think it's an incredibly needed thing here. And, not particularly done. The ideas of Hikusaak espoused are not particularly controversial or different from the majority of opinions, so it was neither as much a persuasive appeal, nor a discussion prompt. Anyway, I think that it could definitely be further developed with guest writers and such. However, for one, more editorials and such are needed. And, the scope should be expanded. As nice as it is now, there is still great room for improvement.

2. My favorite thing about the article was easily the dates and writing. It had a good article feel to it, and seemed well-thought out. It's nice to see good points from the facts. However, I must agree that there were definite leaps on the facts to certain conclusions, some unwarranted assumptions, and certain false analogies.

On a more point basis, the introduction was decent. It's nice to give certain things about the author's biases, the purpose, and a few guidelines. This was certainly done well enough. Not the best, perhaps, but well enough. Following this, it gets into what I consider a really good issue: Aronia. I find inclusion of this here to be the best, as opposed to going to detail about personality and such right from the start. If we could know more about the situation, then, we could learn more about the person. Think about in the other games. The characters' personalities and growth lay in the conflicts and world surrounding them to a great degree. As well as the burdens they bore...

After this, it goes logically into the few things we know directly about the years after the birth of the nation. However, it is too short and the Klift thing seems to be too much of a leap, especially given the real-politic somewhat of the later parts of the article. Perhaps, it would have been best to include this better with another part than a miniscule thing of its own. And, from there it goes to other aspects of Harmonian custom and nature. It does a decent job with explaining these and all, however, it doesn't develop Hikusaak - the point of the article - well with these in either fact or opinion. So... it mostly just states the simple and gives a general likelihood but goes little further. And, from there it finishes the basic facts about Hikusaak much the same, with the rune hunt and his vanishing. Once again, with the typical style used of telling the gacts decently but not really developing the opinions expressed well.

The real opinion section comes at the end. This goes into the areas of personality, goals, etc., however, certain things just aren't quite there. The comparisons to Suikoden world characters in the initial, for instance, just doesn't seem correct as given. It goes off opinion fine enough, however, with the personal measure of goodness, conviction and the like - whether you agree or not - however it's neither as developed as it could be with explanation, and there's a definite lack of the rune. Made even more glaring by it being a key element of the prior paragraph. The worst, however, is the real-world comparisons, as I found the evidence used to be far too shaky and the very idea to be somewhat over-reaching. Regardless of the idea's nature, the said things certainly seemed to be over-reaching.

However, in the end of the article, I must agree that far too little is known, and the speculation is difficult from fact alone. One must run the risk of being wrong, being too controversial, or going a little too far, perhaps, you could argue. However, regarless of such things, it is still a well-written article, all in all. And, well-thought out, I would say. And, I, too, want more solid facts about Hikusaak, and, well.... here's hoping.

3. No, it really didn't change anything. It wasn't a particularly persuasive article to any point, and more of a general informative to me. But, I had already known much of it, and had my own opinions, really. And, I'm hard to change opinions all too greatly, anyway.
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