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What is your Religion?
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iscalio




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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Qur'an cannot possibly be understood in its entirety and Muhammad possessed more insight in its meaning than any other mortal. It's natural to seek his wisdom. You can only doubt the Hadith's relevance if you doubt the prophet.
That doesn't mean that the contents of the Hadith collections are divine or inerrable. But they are the earliest source of man-created Islamic normativity.
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Gustav Pendragon




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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I am curious then, because from what i understood the Qur'an was meant to be the final word from God according to muslim dogma, that everything that was needed to be known was contained within its pages. Now if the Qur'an contains everything that is needed, why is it not possible to be understood on its own. So in essence you are arguing that the divine interevention was not comprehensible to man and requires additional information in order to be followed correctly, namely the patterns of the individual who had been the go between. This is also the first time I have ever heard a muslim state that the Qur'an can not be understood in any fashion, which is quite strange from my point of view. I am curious about the statement, can you elaborate a little more here. Is it of your opinion that the Qur'an is not the final word of God?

Now regarding the nature of a prophet and prophecy here is how i see the situation. A prophet is a messenger for that particular deity, serving as a gobetween for God and mankind in general. Sometimes prophets can perform miracles and such, but that is not necessary. For example, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the miracles present in the islamic faith is that the prophet had been unable to write up until that point, and that during the exercise he was miraculously able to write. I have also heard that it was not this, but rather that he repeated the words he had heard to scribes that copied it down, then edited there work. I am not sure which case is true, or if either case is true, enlightment on the subject would be helpful.

In any event, I would argue that a prophet does not necessarily understand what it is he is foretelling, often times he will not understand due to the immensity of God's particular message. Then it would also be entirely possible for the said prophet to not only have not himself written down the words but have been unable to comprehend them as well. Of course this is speculaton on my part, but it isn't without precedent in the YHWHist religions.

but i think you have said it yourself, they are simply the earliest form of normality that one can look to, and they have a great deal of worth as such. However, I think that it can be detrimental and perhaps even dangerous to give the Hadith as much merit as I see being done in mainstream islamism at this time.
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iscalio




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
This is also the first time I have ever heard a muslim state that the Qur'an can not be understood in any fashion

First, I never said that the Qur'an cannot be understood in any fashion, but that it cannot be understood in its entirety. An obvious evidence for this are the myterious letter combinations at the beginning of each sura. But there is also a logical reaon for it to be this way: The Qur'an is unitary in God, but we can only understand in differences, which is why the scripture appears before us as a part of the emerging multiplicity.
Second, I am not a Muslim.


Quote:
that the prophet had been unable to write up until that point, and that during the exercise he was miraculously able to write

First, I don't believe that Muhammad was unable to read and write. He was a caravan leader! I think that this is only an attempt to prove the divine origin of the Qur'an which should not be necessary.
And it is not believed that Muhammad learned to write: The Qu'ran was written down by his numerous escritoires and was compilated by the caliph Utman. The prophet himself only tought the Qur'an - he never wrote it down.
The miracle claim is based on the perfect poetical beauty of the Qur'an which is said to be impossible for any human to recreate. Muhammad's supposed illiteracy only strengthens this point, since this way he couldn't have been influenced by literature.

Quote:
In any event, I would argue that a prophet does not necessarily understand what it is he is foretelling, often times he will not understand due to the immensity of God's particular message.

That is correct.

Quote:
...dangerous to give the Hadith as much merit as I see being done in mainstream islamism at this time.

And here you're correct again, at least in my opinion.
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Kohaku

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The truth is, he couln't read nor write and he had NEVER been able to do it. If he could, he could have written the Hadith by himself but there's not even a single record of Muhammad written the Hadith. As for Weekendwarrior statement, AlQuran was given to humanity via Muhammad with Jibril (aka. Gabriel in Christianity) as the messenger between the prophet and god. For writing and reading, our prophet used his secretary named Abu Hurairah (a very weel known name if you're studying Hadith)

Another fact, Muhammad had never been the tribe (or caravan as Iscalio said) leader. He is Islam Leader but he had never been the tribe's. He was banished from his society (them whose god is deity) that had forced him to go to another town (madinah) where people there can accept God's teaching. For the proof AlQuran was never changed, you can still find the first fully recorded alQuran form the Third Caliph, Usman bin Affan era. If even one word from alQuran different, we burnt it ( there had been a lot of cases like this in Islamic countries)

You think AlQuran is imperfect? well i don't agree with you. The things written in Quran is the main teaching, while the explanations were written in Hadith. It is for our(common people who were not there when the prophet explained everything)understanding. Have you read the translation of Quran? it's a lot different from most of other that just like history books (i'm very sorry if i offend someone, i have no intention to do so).

Voila, that conclude everything. "and which of God's blessings that you refused? He let the two oceans flows and then they (oceans) emerge as one" -From 'Ar-Rahman' (The Compassionate) 18-19. And then i said to you, can't you see His blessings? Ask me for everything that left unclear
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iscalio




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Schala wrote:
Another fact, Muhammad had never been the tribe (or caravan as Iscalio said) leader

He was a caravan leader before his meeting with Gabriel; it was his profession - he just lead caravans through the desert. I never said that he was a chieftain.
You should read more carefully.

Quote:
You think AlQuran is imperfect

I never called the Qur'an imperfect (because I don't think it is); I only said that it is impossible to understand the holy scripture in its entirety.

You might consider: iscalio just wrote:
You should read more carefully.
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Njord

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Weekendwarrior before we dwell in any other matters I would like to know your personal opinion on the Qu'ran and the Hadith, and why do you think in that way.

iscalio wrote:
He was a caravan leader before his meeting with Gabriel; it was his profession - he just lead caravans through the desert. I never said that he was a chieftain.
You should read more carefully.


Yes you are right he used to lead caravans (a caravan of camels), but we Muslims were told that he mainly used to work as a sheepherder then as a trader. (That is what most stories say)
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Kohaku

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ok then, i'm sorry Iscalio for not reading carefully, hope you can give us another point of view on Islam. You understand Islam well, I suppose you study theology? anyway would you mind telling me your religion? it would be really appreciated. Thanks
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NoFlyZone




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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I am a Christian, Baptist.

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kuwaizair

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

oh ohoh, I won't qoute anything but I have a National Geographic who's cover artical is about Muhammad. founder of 3 religions...man now that is multy tasking isn't it?

anway I read here that there are two books? One is real and one seems like a diversion to me, which I find neat because That is part of what I belive, what ever god thing is out there dosen't want the exact truth revield....so then we have all these other religions floating around, each possibly has the smallest fragment of "the truth"
the the hardes part is finding it. To aviod this comming out as an attack, and then myself being flamed here is an example: Ive see people who say everything has a soul, on the other hand, there are some who say "only good men who embrace this religion and practice it to its full extent get a soul"

anway I may write one day, where Tolken made people's languanges I will do cultures and religions. some will be closer to the truth than others. What amazes me, here is that it seems like most of these holy books are confussing....it makes me happy because I feel "yeah I don't have to explane X, Y or Z".....when god is conserned "it just is, and that is that"
Mind you things like my "dark/light reversal theroy" is painfully unexplanible, it goes beyond "satin is god and god is satin, one is pretending to be the other to gain power from the fait of the people" (everyone always says satin is soooo tricky, read below and you'll see cinderblock #1 of the DLR)

I'm terribly sorry folks but the latter just sounds biased and horrible, to think a "heathen woman" won't get a soul but a guy who is part of "the clique" does?
--------------

anway way here is somthing I find confussing, I'm no master theologion but I thought "satin" is one to give you "empty promices" in return for doing what he/it says, "do this do that and I'll give you a present" but what about God? why doesn't God work differntly insted of saying "i will give you a kingdom (and this and that) if you spread what I teach you" tell me then, why? If the devil is so tricky and works on such a basics then how can one be sure the vision they had isn't the devil?

I could be walking along, see a light and hear "hey yo, (truth revield here) now I'll give you a slice of heaven if you tell people all the niffty things I told you" so whos to say that was god or the devil? seeing as how somone could tell me "don't do what satin tells you, no matter if he says you'll have everything you want!
but, god just told me he'd do that If i spread what he just said?

-----------
elighten/eldarken me on this please
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Gustav Pendragon




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I do apologize for assuming that you were a muslim, I should have paid more attention and not drawn conclusions so quickly. At any rate I still don't quite understand something. Now, once again correct me if i misrepresent your view, but it seems like you are saying that the Qur'an is in fact perfect, but only for God, since only he can view it completely and understand it perfectly. However, was not the purpose of the Qur'an to be the final revelation to man, to contain all that was needed for him to know concerning God and other metaphysical matters. If so, wouldn't it not make sense that God would create a document which man would not be able to understand any way except fully and completely. If it does not succeed in this task, is it not a failure in its objective, and is it not thus imperfect, having inherently failed in its task?

On the other hand, it is my opinion that it would be impossible for God to convey such a message in perfection to man given both the imperfection the technique utilizied along with man's inability to fully comprehend it, given his limited scope. That is why I would classify the document, just like all other supposed divine documents, as inherently flawed by the problamatic nature of revelation. I would argue that it is impossible for God's will to be made known to man through an physical technique, such as language and the written word.

In any event I also think this answers, at least at a basic level, the question about my opinion of the Qur'an. I find it counterproductive to place the ideals and theories within a work as divine simply because of tradition. If said ideals and theories are truly divine it is my opinion that it should simply be obvious that they are so, and that any need to state such a thing would be pointless. However, given my views on revelation I wouldn't trust any document to be the word of God, at least not directly. The Ideals and theories contained within it may in fact be divine, if such a thing exists, and I will personally evaluate and analyze their worth for me. This may be in fact fruitless given humanities limited scope which I already mentioned, but my own theories on the nature of the relationship of God-man-physical reality does provide some value for such an exercise, although i won't bother explaining it all here. As for the Hadith, I think i already explained my feelings on it before. It can be a good document, however placing too much stock into it simply because of tradition and not critically analysing what the document says can in fact be extremely detrimental and at times destructive.
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Gustav Pendragon




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

kuwaizar, i'm not sure if you want a traditionalist christian response to your question, or personal one's. I will attempt to provide both though.

there comes a question as to what revelation is true and which one is false. For if it is the word of God, how can one tell what God is really saying and what false prophets and undermining forces, such as Lucifer, are presenting as heresy. They would say simply that the word of God would shine through any deceptions that would be attempted. A sincere heart seeking the truth would be able to pierce the lies and come to know God's will despite all that was attempted to be thrown over them. Of course they would perceive other supposed words of God as being just what you say, heresy's by false prophets, perhaps even perpetrated by the devil himself. But faith in a God that would not abandon his creations to the whims of one of his creations is the overall force. Simply it comes down to a matter of faith and trust that good will triumph over evil kind of thing.

In any event my view, which i hope I will do a beter job of presenting. Simply put, everything is done according to the will of God. Lucifer is a subordinate of God's in every sense of the word and only acts when given the go ahead by God. He is the source of all that is and isn't, the source of all that is good and evil kind of thing. In any event he is simply a no factor, a sideshow if even that. I could go on and explain my whole current theory on good/evil/god/man relationship, but adult swim is on so that's enough for now.
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Kohaku

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh well, now let me tell you about Muslim’s points of view on another religions. Please, keep in thought that I never wanted to offend someone, so please read these objectively.

We believe that Jew and Christianity are religions from the same God but different times, and at their time (in the past), they prayed to the same God (Allah in Islam, YHWH in Jew, as this three religion believed that there’s only one single God). The prophets in Islam, Christianity, and Jew are Identical. Let me tell you some of them : Jesus (Isa in Islam), Moses (Musa), Abraham (Ibrahim), Elijah (Ilyas), Joseph (Yusuf). The main difference of Islam and Christianity is that we didn’t believe that Jesus is God’s child, and we didn’t believe that he died on the cross. Our teachings told us that God’s taken Jesus to the heaven at the time Judas betrayed him, and God made Judas appearance look a lot like Jesus so the roman mistook him as Jesus and he’s the one who got crucified. As I didn’t know that much about Jew I can only tell the difference is that they mainly didn’t accept Jesus and Muhammad as God’s prophet (as the Christians never accept Muhammad). Some of the other things are also very alike, such as Abel and Cain (Habil and Qabil in Islam), the angel Gabriel, etc. We taught that Islam made by God for people from Muhammad’s era to our era, and until the Armageddon came.

Our points of view regarding to Buddha are divided, some think that it’s religion from God, some think that it was made by humanity. Sidarta’s teachings are similar to the trio, but there’s no single proof that Sidarta is one of God’s prophet. As for Confussionism, Taoism, and Shintoism , we believe that Humanity created these religions.

@Iscalio : At least in two countries Ijtihad still work well. In Indonesia, there is MUI, and in Egypt, there’s the Al- Azhar’s. I don’t really know much about other Muslim Countries but at least in my own country Ijtihad is still used and respected (They continuously make Fatwa, new laws in Islam toward modernity). You can ask Njord if you want to know about Ijtihad in Arab.

@Kuwaizair : Hey, I’m sorry girl (if you’re talking about me in your last post). I apologize if I look a lot like a fanatic in my older posts. What can I do? I’m still 18 and sometime my emotion rules my mind. I tried harder not to get emotional next time, I’ll try to be as objective as I can (as most people still had a lot of negative thoughts for Islam, especially after the 24/7 New York Times article, I got angry easily). And I’m sorry that I always wrong in writing your board’s name, hehe.
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Gustav Pendragon




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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

i'm not sure why anyone would be offended by those views. They are pretty common and mainstream from what I have encountered.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I dont think realigon maters now we have to many problems here having conflecting realigons just add more and many people use realigon as a crutch and get far to into it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, religion might not matter to you personally, however, to literally billions of other people it does. I don't know much about any single religion because I've never been an avid follower of one particular religion, however, I can see that at the center of many of the world's conflicts and issues is in fact religion. So to say that it doesn't matter is false.

Also, people have their own reasons for believing what they believe--that doesn't mean they're using religion as a crutch. If you really believe the teachings in your respective religion, I don't know that you can get too far into it.

Honestly, I don't think the world's problems lie with the religions themselves, but with people's inability to adapt and be tolerant in a world that's gotten a lot smaller with the changing technology. There's no way we can change everyone's belief systems and way of life--all we can do is accept people for what they are. Which lies at the core of the problem; people are unwilling to do that.
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